Real Muay Thai

[JohnPJones]

i've observed discussions on here where several people have said that the MT seen in the UFC and other american MMA and even pure MT leagues is not 'real' or high level MT, so just curious where would one go to see 'real' muay thai or good muay thai?

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Lumpinee Stadium and Rajadamnern are the best bet.

Pakorn, Pornsaneh, Saenchai, Superlek, Muangthai, Sangmanee, Petchboonchu,Youssef Boughanem, etc. (some of those spellings may be wrong)

GENERALLY if it's too western guys fighting it won't be high level - but there are some good western fighters. The muay thai seen in MMA doesn't really resemble actual muay thai at all, outside of Khalil Rountree's most recent fight. Muay Thai isn't really about leagues it's about the stadiums you play in. Sort of like how in tennis you're legit if you play in Wimbledone Stadium or in football if you play at Wembley for example.

The best fighters fight in Lumpinee and Raja. You have so many boxing stadiums in Thailand that it's easy to find fights anywhere because of how popular it is - so quite often you'll see 'legit' western guys beating up cab drivers in small stadiums - cab drivers who are often willing to take a dive.

 

[JohnPJones]

Lumpinee Stadium and Rajadamnern are the best bet.

Pakorn, Pornsaneh, Saenchai, Superlek, Muangthai, Sangmanee, Petchboonchu,Youssef Boughanem, etc. (some of those spellings may be wrong)

GENERALLY if it's too western guys fighting it won't be high level - but there are some good western fighters. The muay thai seen in MMA doesn't really resemble actual muay thai at all, outside of Khalil Rountree's most recent fight. Muay Thai isn't really about leagues it's about the stadiums you play in. Sort of like how in tennis you're legit if you play in Wimbledone Stadium or in football if you play at Wembley for example.

The best fighters fight in Lumpinee and Raja. You have so many boxing stadiums in Thailand that it's easy to find fights anywhere because of how popular it is - so quite often you'll see 'legit' western guys beating up cab drivers in small stadiums - cab drivers who are often willing to take a dive.

curious what the cause of the differences between western and thai MT levels are. is it just that westerners typically make asian arts worse? or is it the current MMA focus of MT in the US at least prevents as much training for just MT, or do the rules of MMA force MT practitioners simply to adapt away from pure MT to make it work in MMA?

 

[Gratis]

curious what the cause of the differences between western and thai MT levels are. is it just that westerners typically make asian arts worse? or is it the current MMA focus of MT in the US at least prevents as much training for just MT, or do the rules of MMA force MT practitioners simply to adapt away from pure MT to make it work in MMA?

Don't equate 'western' Muay Thai with MMA or the U.S. The MT scene in Europe is far more developed and produces better fighters, and it's completely separate from MMA.

 

[aerius]

curious what the cause of the differences between western and thai MT levels are. is it just that westerners typically make asian arts worse? or is it the current MMA focus of MT in the US at least prevents as much training for just MT, or do the rules of MMA force MT practitioners simply to adapt away from pure MT to make it work in MMA?

IMO it comes down to what's referred to as institutional knowledge; the Thais have it in overwhelming abundance, some European and former Soviet countries have a decent amount of it, and North America has pretty much nothing.

In Thailand there's countless thousands of fighters training from childhood for a chance to fight on the big stage, and the training camps are filled with former champions, top fighters, and the coaches & trainers who trained all those fighters. There's a huge organized competitive scene starting from when the fighters are kids and there's fights at every level from the very beginners to the big stadiums. The amount of knowledge & experience that's gained & passed around is simply unmatched.

In North America we have next to nothing. The vast majority of Muay Thai coaches don't even know what Muay Thai is, we have a few former Thai fighters and some others who know what they're doing and that's about it. The competitive scene is somewhere between non-existent to scattered and heavily fractured. 11 year old kids in Thailand will rack up more fights in a year than most fighters in North America will in an entire career. The opportunities to fight & gain experience and pass on that knowledge to others just isn't there outside of small isolated regions.

The European & former Soviet countries which produce good MT fighters are somewhere in between these two extremes.

 

[JohnPJones]

Don't equate 'western' Muay Thai with MMA or the U.S. The MT scene in Europe is far more developed and produces better fighters, and it's completely separate from MMA.

not really a very productive response to a honest question based on the past comments of others who seem more knowledgeable on the subject. those comments leading me to believe there are very few good MT practitioners in europe or north america, using MMA as a reference since that's how MT became known to most over here. (at least in the US.)

 

[AndyMaBobs]

curious what the cause of the differences between western and thai MT levels are. is it just that westerners typically make asian arts worse? or is it the current MMA focus of MT in the US at least prevents as much training for just MT, or do the rules of MMA force MT practitioners simply to adapt away from pure MT to make it work in MMA?

Dunno if it's that westerners make the arts worse but most western muay thai is very sloppy and generally turns into kickboxing with occasional teeps.

I think in MMA its more that they learn the bare basics to be as effective in as little time as possible and as such lose a lot along the way

 

[KyleNakMuay]

not really a very productive response to a honest question based on the past comments of others who seem more knowledgeable on the subject. those comments leading me to believe there are very few good MT practitioners in europe or north america, using MMA as a reference since that's how MT became known to most over here. (at least in the US.)

He's right tho in Europe we have at least a somewhat developed scene, while north american fighters seem to lack the very basics like the muay thai rhythm of a fight, I mean can you imagine watching a professional boxing bout that doesn't even look like one? That's basically every fight I've seen where there's usa fighters involved.

 

[Tayski]

so just curious where would one go to see 'real' muay thai or good muay thai?

To this thread: https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/recent-fights-results-news-from-thailand.2961757/page-126

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

To this thread: https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/recent-fights-results-news-from-thailand.2961757/page-126

Hey hey hey not so fast. I want to remain the only newb in that thread, otherwise esum will get tired of answering stupid questions.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

not really a very productive response to a honest question based on the past comments of others who seem more knowledgeable on the subject. those comments leading me to believe there are very few good MT practitioners in europe or north america, using MMA as a reference since that's how MT became known to most over here. (at least in the US.)

Honestly there is something about us Westerners that make us unfit to fight / understand real MT. I have a theory on why that is.

There is also the fact that the stand up grappling, i.e. clinching, is fundamental in MT, and that Westerners FUCKING HATE THE CLINCH. I have been to several MT gyms in 3 different Western countries and they just don't train it properly if at all.

What Westerners understand with MT is K1 kickboxing with maybe some elbows.

It is very rare to find a Westerner even in Thailand that can fight like a Thai. They move differently, have different balance, different rythm, etc.

Watch stadium MT for 6 months and you will see what I meam.

 

[JohnPJones]

Dunno if it's that westerners make the arts worse but most western muay thai is very sloppy and generally turns into kickboxing with occasional teeps.

I think in MMA its more that they learn the bare basics to be as effective in as little time as possible and as such lose a lot along the way

By and large I think westerners do ruin Asian martial arts especially in the 21st century.

It’s largely a cultural thing. Asian cultures seem to have a higher tendency towards discipline than western cultures.

As mentioned before about Thai MT kids having so many fights as children. In my experience since about 2000 parents in America at least don’t push their kids, and are so worrried about their kids getting a boo boo or two they flip shit when an instructor pushes them, and as time goes on it seems to be getting worse and worse.

That and the institutional knowledge bit.
The US has lost institutional knowledge/experience in facets of life we used to be leaders in, so it makes sense it would take a while to build that up with something from the far side of the world.

 

[Gratis]

not really a very productive response to a honest question based on the past comments of others who seem more knowledgeable on the subject. those comments leading me to believe there are very few good MT practitioners in europe or north america, using MMA as a reference since that's how MT became known to most over here. (at least in the US.)

No, you're still conflating the scene in Europe with North America and they're not comparable. Of course they're not on the level of the Thais, no one is, but most of the decent 'farang' who fight in Thailand, the ones who actually manage to have competitive fights, come from Europe, you will hardly find any from North America though. There's also actual real Muay Thai fights in Europe, in North America the rules are almost always altered.

Honestly there is something about us Westerners that make us unfit to fight / understand real MT. I have a theory on why that is.

There is also the fact that the stand up grappling, i.e. clinching, is fundamental in MT, and that Westerners FUCKING HATE THE CLINCH. I have been to several MT gyms in 3 different Western countries and they just don't train it properly if at all.

What countries were these? Because I've had the opposite experience. If anything, the clinch is overemphasized by Western fighters, especially the bigger ones.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

No, you're still conflating the scene in Europe with North America and they're not comparable. Of course they're not on the level of the Thais, no one is, but most of the decent 'farang' who fight in Thailand, the ones who actually manage to have competitive fights, come from Europe, you will hardly find any from North America though. There's also actual real Muay Thai fights in Europe, in North America the rules are almost always altered.



What countries were these? Because I've had the opposite experience. If anything, the clinch is overemphasized by Western fighters, especially the bigger ones.

Québec,France, Germany. No clinch.

 

[GordoBarraBJJ]

Figured this would be best to put in this thread rather than start a whole new thread

 

[JohnPJones]

No, you're still conflating the scene in Europe with North America and they're not comparable. Of course they're not on the level of the Thais, no one is, but most of the decent 'farang' who fight in Thailand, the ones who actually manage to have competitive fights, come from Europe, you will hardly find any from North America though. There's also actual real Muay Thai fights in Europe, in North America the rules are almost always altered.



What countries were these? Because I've had the opposite experience. If anything, the clinch is overemphasized by Western fighters, especially the bigger ones.

i'm not conflating anything...i specifically referenced america.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

By and large I think westerners do ruin Asian martial arts especially in the 21st century.

It’s largely a cultural thing. Asian cultures seem to have a higher tendency towards discipline than western cultures.

As mentioned before about Thai MT kids having so many fights as children. In my experience since about 2000 parents in America at least don’t push their kids, and are so worrried about their kids getting a boo boo or two they flip shit when an instructor pushes them, and as time goes on it seems to be getting worse and worse.

That and the institutional knowledge bit.
The US has lost institutional knowledge/experience in facets of life we used to be leaders in, so it makes sense it would take a while to build that up with something from the far side of the world.

I think it's a matter of perspective as well. America has great wrestling - it's ingrained in the culture of America in the same way that boxing is in Mexico and my home in the UK. Asian martial arts are scene as 'self defence' or a hobby in the west, there's something foreign and different about it.

In Japan, for Judoka, it's their life, Korea has university systems that train you up in Judo from nothing and can eventually get you a degree in Judo to pass the knowledge down. I think there is a fundamental disconnect in what karate, judo, kung fu etc. mean for us as westners as opposed to what they mean for people in Asia.

In Muay Thai, while the martial art is quite old, it's exposure to the West is quite new, but in the west we live fundamentally different lives. People in Thailand don't really do Muay Thai as a hobby, they either don't know it at all, are a fighter, or they were a fighter and now they've retired. It's not really something you just do for fun - like we do. I think it's that difference in how we live vs how they do.

I don't necessarily think Americans lack discipline, the wrestling culture is fantastic and I think Americans are very hard workers - but I think that whenever you borrow a sport or an art from another culture, it's very hard to practise that in the same way that culture would.

 

[panamaican]

I think it's a matter of perspective as well. America has great wrestling - it's ingrained in the culture of America in the same way that boxing is in Mexico and my home in the UK. Asian martial arts are scene as 'self defence' or a hobby in the west, there's something foreign and different about it.

In Japan, for Judoka, it's their life, Korea has university systems that train you up in Judo from nothing and can eventually get you a degree in Judo to pass the knowledge down. I think there is a fundamental disconnect in what karate, judo, kung fu etc. mean for us as westners as opposed to what they mean for people in Asia.

In Muay Thai, while the martial art is quite old, it's exposure to the West is quite new, but in the west we live fundamentally different lives. People in Thailand don't really do Muay Thai as a hobby, they either don't know it at all, are a fighter, or they were a fighter and now they've retired. It's not really something you just do for fun - like we do. I think it's that difference in how we live vs how they do.

I don't necessarily think Americans lack discipline, the wrestling culture is fantastic and I think Americans are very hard workers - but I think that whenever you borrow a sport or an art from another culture, it's very hard to practise that in the same way that culture would.

I think that's a really insightful point. The difference between taking up these martial arts as hobbies vs. committing to them as full on lifestyles.

 

[DoctorTaco]

What is real Muay Thai? The style that you’re going to find in northern Thailand is different then you find down south. Different gyms and different stadiums All over the country tend to have different applications and culture is when it comes to Thai boxing. The same is true for the world in general. Different countries have different styles although it’s all derived from the same root source. Even in the states my day that you find on the East Coast is wildly different than what you find on the West Coast.

We sent 16 fighters to the IFMA world championships in Bangkok last August and won 12 medals. (8 gold). So if we are beating Thais, Russians, and Europeans in Thailand, does that make our Muay Thai better?

 

[j123]

For majority of MMA gyms (esp in the states) the striking taught is for the most part Dutch KB and and heavy emphasis on boxing. Dutch KB, their stance is very forward heavy compared to MT (their origins come from KK karate). You see it in their low kicks especially. They'll "crouch" down as they put weight into the kick. MT is usually very upright in stance overall with heavy use of teeps and middle kicks. Personally if I don't see teep usage or clinchwork I can't really say it's MT. It's striking, but not really MT. Dutch KB carries over to MMA better than pure MT just by how forward they are.

From a business side lots of gyms write it off as Muay Thai to get people on board. So that's taken into consideration

As for the quality being much different, it's MMA. You have to cover so much bases in a short amount of time and you can't really do well across the board. Also, MMA is a grapplers sport first. The sport is also quite young compared to others.

Let's use Brazilian Muay Thai as the example. It's roots are TKD guys who dabbled slightly into MT, then decided to add some extra bits onto their regimen, and they rebranded themselves as Brazilian MT. Decades later it's what people see, and it's assumed it's MT, they're throwing leg kicks, knees so to the average person, it looks pretty in line