Rate of Force Development

Discussion in 'Strength & Conditioning Discussion' started by Cuban Moses, Jul 11, 2010.

  1. Cuban Moses

    Cuban Moses Orange Belt

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    I've read some of the "Science and Practice of Strength Training" and I'm interested in having a discussion of rate of force development, dynamic effort. I think this could be a good discussion for this forum.

    He states that the best way to develop this for the beginning and intermediate athlete is to simply increase maximal force. I am not claiming to be an advanced athlete.

    What happens once someone reaches the advance stage and they start to focus on their rate of force development? How do you determine when it is time to really focus on this aspect of your training?

    They give a breakdown on the time there is to apply force in some athletic movements and they usually take somewhere around .1 to .2 seconds. Maximal force takes about .4 seconds to occur. So, there is a high importance to focus on the dynamic effort at some point in someone's athletic career.

    Westside seems to have success training rate of force development at the same time as maximal effort and repetition effort.

    Any thoughts of what exercises train this best and when to start incorporating them?
     
  2. ASEGSEA

    ASEGSEA Guest

    Since I am the thread copy and pasta:

    "Rate of force development (ROFD) is probably the most important and under-recognized area of applied science pertaining to strength training and athletics. ROFD essentially refers to the speed at which force can be produced. Aside from those sports requiring very precise movements (such as gymnastics and ballet), I can’t think of a single example in athletics or lifting that wouldn’t benefit from a faster ROFD. A faster ROFD results in quicker, more explosive movements and gets the bar moving sooner. "

    Example:

    Let’s take a look at an example. Let’s say two people (lifter A and lifter B) are attempting a 500-lb deadlift. Both are capable of producing 500 lbs of force, but lifter A has a significantly faster ROFD. It may take lifter A two seconds to produce enough force to get the bar moving off the floor and four seconds to lock it out at the top. Lifter B, with an inferior ROFD, takes four seconds to get the bar moving off the floor and six seconds to get it to his knees. He reaches failure before locking out at the top.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 11, 2010
  3. PowerHungry

    PowerHungry Oh yeah!

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    Hey Bob. We recognize that you can cut and paste off a physics forum. But can you demonstrate any of knowledge and how it relates to strength training or RFD in any form of application?
     
  4. ASEGSEA

    ASEGSEA Guest

    Actually it's my recognition that "Rate of Force" may be just another buzzword from the growing physical development community. All it appears to be is the scientific aspects of slow vs. fast-twitch muscle development.

    But don't let my post on quantum movements stop you two from having a hardy discussion.
     
  5. Cuban Moses

    Cuban Moses Orange Belt

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    RIP S & P.

    There used to be lots of good posts/threads on here and now for the most part it's a bunch of posts that can be answered by just pointing people to the FAQ. Now, this guy posts this.

    This is a discussion about the fact you don't have time to develop full force in most atheletic movements and how to improve upon this.
     
  6. ASEGSEA

    ASEGSEA Guest

    I agree that the "FAQ pointing-to" dilemma is ridiculous. I've removed the comment as it was just a wall of text that may inhibit the discussion of this topic. I still don't see how S&P is any more advanced than what you'd find with twitch development, but like I said, don't let me stop you.
     
  7. SteveX

    SteveX Nobody F*cks Wit Da Jesus

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    I'm in no way, shape or form an expert, but here's my take on things:

    Zatsiorsky writes that increasing rate of force development through an increase in maximal force is only good for athletes who have an explosive strength deficit(ESD) that is way below 50%. This value can be calculated using the formula ESD=100(Fmm-Fm)/Fm where Fmm is maximum maximorum force (the highest force able to be produced under the most optimal conditions) and Fm is maximal force. However, for the vast majority of trainees (and trainers for that matter) this is beyond the means of their equipment and knowledge.

    My first instinct would be to say that the Olympic lifts would be the best way of increasing rate of force development. The reason being that there is no possible way to perform any of these lifts slowly with any kind of success. The only problem with the oly lifts is that they can take some time to learn and without proper coaching one may never perform them correctly.



    As for when to focus on increasing rate of force development, it is dependent on a trainee's goals. However, routines such as Starting Strength, which was obviously designed for people with little to no lifting experiences, use power cleans so it's safe to say it is never to soon to implement some type of explosive movements in your training.


    Hopefully more people chime in because this could be a really good discussion. And please somebody correct me if I'm wrong on any of my points.
     
  8. Origins

    Origins Blue Belt

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    Good thread topic. I will be watching this one. I agree that it is annoying how most of the posts in here are questions like "i wana get strong and stuff. how can i do that?".

    From my novice perspective, I would say that explosive movements like oly lifts and plyos would improve "rate of force production". But it would vary widely depending on the sport for which you are training. Dynamic effort lifting for an advanced lifter would obviously improve lifting, as Westside has shown, but I don't know how much carryover it would have to sports. In other words, DE benching would help an advanced lifter improve his bench, but would it help his basketball skills? My gut tells me that the more advanced strength-wise an athlete is, the less benefit they will get from general strength movements like squatting, pressing, etc.
     
  9. PowerHungry

    PowerHungry Oh yeah!

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    It is easier to develop explosiveness from a solid strength base than it is to develop maximal strength from a solid explosiveness base.
     
  10. SteveX

    SteveX Nobody F*cks Wit Da Jesus

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    Is that necessarily true? There are plenty of videos showing Olympic lifters showing some impressive strength.

    YouTube - Zhang Guozheng 220kg x 2
    YouTube - Dabaya 5x200 front squat

    Both these men compete in the -69kg (around 150lb) weight class (no way of knowing what their body weight is during the time of the video) and are squatting 400 pounds for reps: that is around 3x body weight which by most standard if pretty fucking strong. Obviously these are Olympic level athletes and in no way exemplify the majority of trainees. However, it is safe to say that they've been lifting explosively for most of their lives.

    Though I could be completely off base seeing as I don't have access to their training history. They could very well have started out by building a strength base before moving onto more explosive training.
     
  11. Cuban Moses

    Cuban Moses Orange Belt

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    I just read some more on the topic and Zatsiorsky goes on to say "Employ specific drills and methods to improve reversible (stretch-shortening) muscle action."

    Say someone was trying to improve their sprawl and hips for MMA, Wrestling, BJJ, etc.

    Exercises that come to mind are squat jumps, depth jumps, squats to some degree.

    SteveX,

    I would tend to believe that those athletes are not the norm and elite explosive athletes will also be very strong athletes. These athletes have likely been trying from a young age and their progress has been monitored in all facets necessary to excel, including improving their maximal strength.
     
  12. Cuban Moses

    Cuban Moses Orange Belt

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    Origins,

    You are correct in your assumption that the mor advanced you are an athlete the more specific the drill has to be in order to have a good carryover to the respective sport.

    A basketball player would likely be interested in improving their vertical jump and at first they would benefit greatly from squatting, deadlifting, cleans, etc. As they become stronger they may need to specifically addressing exercises mimicing the motion of the vertical jump to see improvements.

    Good Method
    Main sport exercise with added resistance

    Also, shot putters use lighter and heavier shots to improve throught the force-velocity curve with good results.
     
  13. miaou

    miaou barely keeping it together

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    When quoting a text it would be good to provide a source, either in the form of a link, a book, or an author.

    I don't see how RFD is relevant in a movement that takes 2+ seconds to get the bar moving off the floor. On the other hand, that is very closely related to maximum strength.

    It is not a "buzzword", it is a specific and measurable quality of muscle function.
     
  14. miaou

    miaou barely keeping it together

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    I am pretty sure that Science & Practice does a good job at explaining how to train for improving the RFD. I recommend reading the entire book, it is worth it.

    Training for RFD depends on your sport. Shot put and javelin throw involve two not that dissimilar movement patterns, but the training for RFD will be different due to the difference in the amount of resistance that the force needs to develop against (a shot weight approximately 10x as much as a javelin). What do you want to train your RFD for?



    Generally speaking you use 45-65% of your training max and make the same movement with as much explosion/speed as possible. Ideally you are throwing the object against which you are applying force (the barbell if you are pressing, or you jump if you are squatting) instead of stopping once you reach full ROM.
     
  15. Cuban Moses

    Cuban Moses Orange Belt

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    Removed
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2010
  16. miaou

    miaou barely keeping it together

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    ^ I am sure that would be very interesting to someone who understands astrophysics. Just edit that out, it takes unnecessarily large space and makes the thread harder to follow.


    ...not to mention that both links are broken (which I really don't know why I even bothered clicking in the first place, since the entire text is completely unrelated to my interests!!).
     
  17. Cuban Moses

    Cuban Moses Orange Belt

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    miaou,

    I have read most of Strength and Practice of Strength Training. I would like to just expand my knowledge and I do recall the example of the shot put and javelin. I used to play professional baseball and none of the workouts seem to take into account of these ideas into account. I would like to maybe one day get back into it as a trainer, and even if I don't I'd like to apply it towards my new hobby of bjj.
     
  18. miaou

    miaou barely keeping it together

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    I don't know the first thing about basketball training. If I had to train a basketball player I would try to somehow access training programs of professional players.

    If I had to take a guess based on basic principles, then I would work on building a solid strength base (including both full and half squats among other basic exercises), I would focus on proper posture and shoulder health/mobility for overhead work (basketball includes a great amount of OH movements) and I would work on explosive movements (jump squats with light weight, plyo jumps, sprints, medicine ball work mimicking passing and throwing the ball, etc.).

    I wouldn't focus too much on maximum strength, beyond establishing a solid strength base, however I would include a fair amount of unilateral work (especially for knee/hip/ankle stability). I could also see how muscular endurance (especially on overhead movements) could play a big factor and I could also see how circuits would fit in the training program.


    Again, I am making assumptions without knowing much about the sport. Also, this obviously doesn't address aerobic endurance and sport technique aspects. It also doesn't address periodization and how all this would fit into the basketball on/off season. I hope some of this is helpful.
     
  19. Tosa

    Tosa Red Belt

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    Here's my understanding.

    Rate of force development is comprised of two elements, being able to generate large amounts of force, and being able to generate force quickly. For most people, the limiting factor is how much force they can generate. It's easier to generate a smaller amount of force quickly, the speed factor is less of an issue for those who are weaker. Additionaly, considering the impact of many explosive exercises, it's probably better to have a solid strength base, increased strength of tendons and ligaments, and a degree of hypertrophy before engaging in certain explosive exercises.

    At a certain point it will become necessary to train Rate of force development if it's specific to someones goals. So after establishing a base of lifting, a limited amount of explosive work could be included. For example, 5x3 broad jumps every other week. And then if someone notices that the limited amount of explosive work isn't improving despite their strength increasing, more explosive work should be included.

    As for which exercises can be used to improve rate of force development. Any exercise can potentially be explosive if the load is appropriate, although some are much better suited for explosive work. Using Olympic lifts to increase rate of force development means training them somewhat differently than if the goal was just to lift more in the Olympic lifts. That's because peak power output (i.e. rate of force development) is greatest at ~80% during the Olympic lifts. You also have to consider whether you want to invest the time to learn proper technique for the Olympic lifts.

    Plyometrics refer specifically to exercises where there's additional force to increase the stretch reflex. For example if I jump off a box, and immediately jump onto another box, the stretch reflex is greater than if I just squatted down and jumped, therefore this a plyometric exercise. Plyometrics can be useful, but they are also harder on the muscles, connective tissues, joints and CNS. It's best to use them with moderation, and only for a limited period. E.g. including plymetrics once a week for a month.
     
  20. chia

    chia POWER OF THE GLOW

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    The importance of RFD training depends on the athletic feat you're training for. Generally the goal is to optimize power, which is a component of force*velocity. External resistance (force) and velocity and inversely related. Greater external resistance means that force becomes a more important (ie. shotput), while smaller resistance means velocity becomes relatively more important (ie. javelin).

    RFD limits how much of your maximal force can be applied during that athletic endeavor. When the time available for force development is unlimited (ie. powerlifting) then RFD is pretty much irrelevant and all that matters is maximum force. However, when velocity is important, you must perform a movement in shorter amount of time, increasing velocity but reducing time available for force development. This means that in most athletic endeavors, peak exerted force is less than maximum force. A beginner athlete can often improve exerted force simply by improving maximum force, but when improvements in maximum force no longer bring about improvements in exerted force, improving RFD becomes important.

    As I mentioned before, RFD is not really important at all powerlifting since it is essentially all force and no velocity. It makes no difference if it takes 2 seconds to move the bar or 5 seconds (excluding muscular fatigue). Force exerted IS the max force so training RFD would not help at all. Most westside "DE" workouts do not train with loads that generate optimum levels of power, instead they really just turn into submaximal effort workouts.

    Depends on sports and goals. It's not practical to measure force/time curves for most athletes so this is usually done based on experience rather than by formula. Since power is key in most sports, "dynamic effort" type of training is often achieved doing the sporting movements themselves at maximum velocity. For example, throwing a baseball at max velocity. Again there are many factors which are involved in incorporating special exercises for the sake of improving either velocity or RFD.
     

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