Rafael Cordeiro's kicking advice

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by II Muchetto II, Aug 14, 2016.

  1. II Muchetto II

    II Muchetto II Orange Belt

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    I was having a read in fighters only magazine and looking at Rafael Cordeiro's section, imo he is one of the best coaches out there for mma, so I'm a big fan but was a little confused with his advice under the 'master' section. He says with the roundhouse that 'you don't always have to turn your hip and throw kicks the traditional Thai way. Quick snappy kicks can catch your opponent off guard'

    While this statement is obviously true, being advice for a master level seems a little strange. Personally I don't think throwing snappy roundhouse kicks and not engaging your hips are very affective, there will be no power and will easily be caught.

    The only people I see throw kicks like this are complete novices.

    In the pic of him demonstrating a counter roundhouse you can see he isn't turning the hip over and to me the kicks doesn't look good. It's hard to see from the pic, but his knee is pointing straight up (It looks more like a push kick)

    Just wondering what you guys make of the advice and of the tecnique of his kick?
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2016
  2. II Muchetto II

    II Muchetto II Orange Belt

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    This is how I think a roundhouse should look
     
  3. j123

    j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

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    I guess there's not much room to work it off a caught kick.

    There's many ways to throw a roundhouse/swing kick. As long as it can deliver damage without hurting you then its okay imo.
     
  4. Universal Kombat

    Universal Kombat Blue Belt

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    He's not wrong. Look at some of Machidas kicks vs the more traditional muay thai kicks. Another guy that comes to mind is Petti's body kicks.

    I've been lurking on sherdog since the Pride days (yeah I'm cool like that), so I know just how deeply the striking section is tied to pretty much just boxing and Muay Thai.

    For that very same reason you'll find people who will tell you that anything not thrown like a boxer or muay thai fighter is incorrect or not as effective.

    Which I can't blame them, arguably those are two of the most effective striking arts around. That being said MMA in these last couple of years has shown us the effectiveness of other arts as well to some extent.

    My favorite example of Rafael Cordeiros train of thought with this particular style of kick is Machidas employment of it.

    He's a striker who's ground game is not as developed as a grapplers obviously. He doesn't want to get taken down. So he does a quicker, more stable, and easily retractable kick to his opponents midside.



     
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  5. II Muchetto II

    II Muchetto II Orange Belt

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    Yeah I agree with that, but how much damage can you do without turning your hips? The kick would be more of a nuisance just to score points? I wouldn't describe a flicky kick as a master level technique
     
  6. II Muchetto II

    II Muchetto II Orange Belt

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    Yeah I agree if going to the leg, or coming up under the elbow to the ribs, but he is talking about a head kick.

    And in the video you posted, machida is turning the hip over with the knockout of Munoz, that was a beautiful roundhouse, I remember it well.

    Plus, I'm not saying he is incorrect, I said his statement was correct, just puzzled me that it was put as a master technique. I didn't think it was a very advanced way to be able to throw the kick like that, it obviously works well for certain target ares
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2016
  7. BJ@LW&WW

    [email protected]&WW Gold Belt

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  8. j123

    j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

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    Yes, but listing yourself as "Masterful Muay Thai" and thowing what isn't a MT kick is what grinds the gears with nak muays

    Its definitely more snappy. I use a TKD snap type kick for my headkicks, its faster and gets the job done for me. Its not as strong as a regular MT kick for sure. If it lands on the chin, it doesn't take much force like the regular swing kick to get the job done. There are TKD headkick KOs, and they use the snap type kick.

    But going back to history, Brazilian Muay Thai were originally TKD guys who added some MT in. TKD was still their base, which actually makes sense why it seems different from MT in Thailand.
     
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  9. Wolf Of Sherdog

    Wolf Of Sherdog Brown Belt Professional Fighter

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    Brazilian ''Muay thai'' is not muay thai. They got some weird style mixed with tkd and belt systems. Cordeiro is a good trainer and his style works but he should not call it Muay Thai and DEFINETIVELY NOT master level
     
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  10. II Muchetto II

    II Muchetto II Orange Belt

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    I have a bit of a snappy kick of my front leg myself, I do feel I can generate enough power to do some damage but I do engage my hips when I pivot my supporting supporting foot, I don't really do it via a switch, I just come straight up from my front leg, more TKD style that Thai tbh, but I'm left footed and right handed so my strong leg is at the front for me.

    It's good to hear that it's good advice, I will try it out a bit more in sparring, if I ever done it in the past I felt I was being a bit lazy and not using proper technique, so it's good to no I can experiment about a bit more now and no that it can be pretty affective.

    I wasn't meaning to come off disrespectful to rafael, The guy is a genius. It was just new to me to hear people call that style of kick advanced and affective, always good to be learning new stuff
     
  11. II Muchetto II

    II Muchetto II Orange Belt

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    Yeah he has definitely got is own style, having a belt system and calling it Muay Thai is a little strange imo.
     
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  12. Universal Kombat

    Universal Kombat Blue Belt

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    Oh I didn't comprehend the TS was talking specifically about a head kick. But I noticed what you said about Machida head kick being the more traditional muay thai one which is why I specified body kicks in my post.

    When it comes to head kicks I actually prefer the muay thai one because it can sneak over or pierce through a lazy or low block such as with Munoz.
     
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  13. NidNoi

    NidNoi Blue Belt

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    In mma , who uses Muay Thai ?

    If there is not , no need to mention Muay Thai.
     
  14. n.diazismylife1999

    n.diazismylife1999 Black Belt

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    How would a quick snappy kick be easier to catch than a more telegraphed kick that takes longer?

    It doesn't take a lot of power to disorientate or even knock someone out if you hit them in the head or neck with a kick.
     
  15. II Muchetto II

    II Muchetto II Orange Belt

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    My thought process behind it was because it had less power it would be easier to catch, but I agree with you after previous comments, it isn't easier, I take my comment back.

    But I don't agree with your 2nd point at all, your kick wouldn't be more telegraphed just because you turn your hip over. Doing a 'flicky' kick doesn't stop a kick from being telegraphed. A good kicker works hard not to telegraph all his kicks. Someone how would telegraph a roundhouse when engaging his hips, probably does the same tel when throwing a flicky one.

    I'm more interested in what you think personally about throwing a roundhouse to the head and not turning your hip over, weather if you see someone doing it you would consider it a good technique?
     
  16. n.diazismylife1999

    n.diazismylife1999 Black Belt

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    Your kick is by definition more telegraphed if you turn your hip over. That doesn't mean it's bad, or that the commentators will go "wow, what a telegraphed kick", it's just more telegraphed than a non-committed flicky kick.

    Yes, a roundhouse to the head without turning your hip is a good technique. Not every strike is intended to knock your opponent out.
     
  17. II Muchetto II

    II Muchetto II Orange Belt

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    Good to hear your thoughts on the technique.

    Although I don't agree with the telegraph comment, some kicks have no telegraph. All depends on the kicker.

    Depends on your definition of a telegraphed kick, to me it's having a tel before you throw the kick, not the split second difference in time it takes to throw using your hip at the end.

    People will always react to the kick from the moment you lift your leg, telegraphed on non-telegraphed
     
  18. ARIZE

    ARIZE Blue Belt

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    In Muay Thai, some people also make a little step with the front foot towards the side of the opponent, to help them kick "through" and not just at the adverser. In Taekwon-do for example, this is a huge tel...Maybe that's also a detail to keep in mind?
     
  19. Universal Kombat

    Universal Kombat Blue Belt

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    I think every move has a telegraph, just some more so than others. A pro will be able to pick out a telegraph even from a jab.

    The Thai kick does have more telegraph than a quick snappy kick naturally.

    Look at it like a jab vs an overhand. Ones designed for speed and less telegraph, the other is designed for maximum damage and requires more timing, movement, and positioning to land it.

    I've fought in both muay thai and sanshou so I'm not picking one over the other. I'm just saying they're both different and they have their place in a fight.

    I usually use my thai round houses against slower fighters, hurt opponents, or people with a bad or compromised defense (hurt arm, ribs, or tired)

    My snappy kicks are used against faster opponents or grapplers I really can't afford to go to the ground with. Or just generally in the beginning of a fight when my opponent is fresh and explosive.

    MMA striking is obviously different than just a striking context because us strikers cant afford to lose a round underneath a lay and prayer.

    I'd rather he ground and pounded to a tko or submitted than have that happen.
     
  20. II Muchetto II

    II Muchetto II Orange Belt

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    Just because a technique takes longer than others doesn't give it more of a telegraph, it just gives the other person longer to react.

    A telegraph would be if someone drops their jabbing hand before they jab, or doing a step up before they kick.

    Techniques that take a little longer to land are more differcult, they usually involve a set up. Unless you are really fast with it. Some people have faster roundhouses than jabs and some people have a cross that lands all the time because lack of telegraph.

    Again, it comes down to ones definition of telegraphing a technique in the context of martial arts. For me it's what you do before you throw the move to show your opponent what you are about to throw. It only takes a couple times of you doing it for them to have a good read on you, helps them either defend or counter easily. If you don't telegraph your technique then it will be harder to counter and less time for them to defend, slip, parry etc
     

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