questions about "Body by science"

[TigerArm]

So a little background: Last semester of college i started the Stronglifts 5x5 program and had some good results. (squatted my own BW for the first time ever, a big deal for my skinny ass chicken legs. ) Once summer started, i got back into training kickboxing/sambo full time. I tried to keep up with lifting but found out i was overtraining real quick, so i decided to just focus on skill development and cardio for a few months.

So a few weeks ago i picked up the book 'Body by science' lots of interesting exercise science stuff in there. The book advocates a program of one set to failure, once a week, on the big compound lifts like Bench, squat, DL. It's all new to me but this type of training is otherwise known as High Intensity Training (H.I.T). I did some research and found lots of interesting arguments for/against this type of lifting, so i decided to give it a shot for myself. (I figured once a week would fit in nicely with my training schedule. )

I'm only 3 weeks in, but kinda iffy on the program so far. I think it's just too difficult to go to true failure with the equipment i'm using. (I currently have a power rack, bench, pullup bar, and free weights available to me.) Once i get back in school though, i'll have plenty of machines available at the school facility to spot myself with. What i'm wondering is, should i stick with the Body by Science program, (1 day a week would be easy to stick to, i'm gonna have a crazy busy semester. :icon_sad or get back on Stronglifts, since i'm still technically a beginner? I will also be grappling/kickboxing 2 days a week, more if i can manage.

Opinions? Thanks in advance guys.

 

[PowerHungry]

Sounds like a pile of shit. Mike Mentzer's old BB stuff if I'm correct.

I would do the Pendlay program for aspiring MMA practitioners, Wendler's 531, or maybe one of the FAQ splits by CS. But based on the limited information in terms of your current lifts, it sounds like you could still make plenty of gains on Starting Strength.

 

[DrBdan]

A lot of people will recommend Starting Strength over Stronglifts but if you've been doing well with Stronglifts and liking it I'd keep doing it. I did it for a while as a complete noob and made good progress. If you find the 5x5 is too much you can cut it back to only 2 days/week and/or change it to 3x5.

 

[milano]

What are your goals?

edit: regardless of your goals, this body by science thing just seems like a bodybuilding type program. I can't even think of the last time I lifted weight for countless reps to failure . Stick to Stronglifts.

 

[TigerArm]

What are your goals?

edit: regardless of your goals, this body by science thing just seems like a bodybuilding type program. I can't even think of the last time I lifted weight for countless reps to failure . Stick to Stronglifts.

I'd like to lose maybe 5-10 pounds of fat and then put on maybe 10 or so of muscle from there. Now that i hit my bw in squat weight, maybe hit 1.5x? Mostly i just want to be stronger/in better shape for martial arts. Losing my chicken legs wouldn't hurt either.

And it's not just mindlessly doing the same weight every week for more reps. You're supposed to hit failure in under 10 reps for a total time under load of about :45-1:30. (You're supposed to do the reps slow as possible on both positive/negative half.) Once you get over 10 reps or 1:30 time you up the poundage.

Probably should've mentioned that in the OP, my bad.

 

[DrBdan]

I'd like to lose maybe 5-10 pounds of fat and then put on maybe 10 or so of muscle from there. Now that i hit my bw in squat weight, maybe hit 1.5x? Mostly i just want to be stronger/in better shape for martial arts. Losing my chicken legs wouldn't hurt either.

And it's not just mindlessly doing the same weight every week for more reps. You're supposed to hit failure in under 10 reps for a total time under load of about :45-1:30. (You're supposed to do the reps slow as possible on both positive/negative half.) Once you get over 10 reps or 1:30 time you up the poundage.

Probably should've mentioned that in the OP, my bad.

That's a deal-killer right there. You should always been trying to move the weight as quickly and explosively as possible. Even if the weight is heavy and the bar is moving slowly, it should still be as fast as you can move it. Body by Science already sounds iffy and that just seals the deal.

 

[KILL KILL]

I'd like to lose maybe 5-10 pounds of fat and then put on maybe 10 or so of muscle from there. Now that i hit my bw in squat weight, maybe hit 1.5x? Mostly i just want to be stronger/in better shape for martial arts. Losing my chicken legs wouldn't hurt either.

And it's not just mindlessly doing the same weight every week for more reps. You're supposed to hit failure in under 10 reps for a total time under load of about :45-1:30. (You're supposed to do the reps slow as possible on both positive/negative half.) Once you get over 10 reps or 1:30 time you up the poundage.

Probably should've mentioned that in the OP, my bad.

ghey. throw that shit out.

 

[TigerArm]

That's a deal-killer right there. You should always been trying to move the weight as quickly and explosively as possible. Even if the weight is heavy and the bar is moving slowly, it should still be as fast as you can move it. Body by Science already sounds iffy and that just seals the deal.

Really? I know you guys are all more experienced lifters than me, but even ignoring the scientific studies in the book the slow rep makes common sense to me. Slow rep = harder = more muscular adaption, right? At least that is how it is presented. I did one of the workouts today. The most weight i've squatted is 185 (my BW) for 5 reps. Today i did 155 forr 10 reps with about a 5 up, 5 down speed and it felt plenty hard, definitely gonna be sore tommorow even with only one set.

Here's a quote from the book;

We advocate that your perform your repetitions in these exercises slowly. Data from the scientific literature overwhelmingly indicates that moving faster diminishes strength gains. The reason is that with faster movement, momentum has contributed to the movement of the weight rather than muscle fiber involvement. In a study conducted by physiologist Wayne Wescott, a director of strength training for the YMCA, male and female subjects between the ages twenty five and eighty two years of age were put into two groups, one that trained in a slow fashion and one that trained in a faster' more conventional manner. Over a ten week period, the subjects in the slower contraction group showed a 59 percent increase as opposed to a 39 percent increase in the faster contraction group.

I don't mean to hate, i really just want to get the best results out of the limited time i have, so if you could post the reasoning behind the faster rep rather than just 'that program sucks, lawl' i appreciate it.

 

[Tosa]

The goal of strength training is to train your body to produce more force. Intentionally doing slow reps means you're producing less force than if you either (1) lifted as quickly as possible, or (2) had a slower rep speed because you're using more weight. Besides which, one set to failure doesn't provide enough stimulus to get the most of either muscular adaptation, or CNS adaptation. You won't find anybody who knows what they're doing seriously practicing H.I.T.

 

[KnightTemplar]

The only reputable program that includes Reps to Failure is WS4SB and even then, it is only done in a specific part of the training program. I have'nt been to DeFranco's site recently, but I seem to recall he'd changed the Upper Body Rep Day to include the option of either RTF or high reps of 12 - 15.

 

[KnightTemplar]

So a little background: Last semester of college i started the Stronglifts 5x5 program and had some good results. (squatted my own BW for the first time ever, a big deal for my skinny ass chicken legs. ) Once summer started, i got back into training kickboxing/sambo full time. I tried to keep up with lifting but found out i was overtraining real quick, so i decided to just focus on skill development and cardio for a few months.

So a few weeks ago i picked up the book 'Body by science' lots of interesting exercise science stuff in there. The book advocates a program of one set to failure, once a week, on the big compound lifts like Bench, squat, DL. It's all new to me but this type of training is otherwise known as High Intensity Training (H.I.T). I did some research and found lots of interesting arguments for/against this type of lifting, so i decided to give it a shot for myself. (I figured once a week would fit in nicely with my training schedule. )

I'm only 3 weeks in, but kinda iffy on the program so far. I think it's just too difficult to go to true failure with the equipment i'm using. (I currently have a power rack, bench, pullup bar, and free weights available to me.) Once i get back in school though, i'll have plenty of machines available at the school facility to spot myself with. What i'm wondering is, should i stick with the Body by Science program, (1 day a week would be easy to stick to, i'm gonna have a crazy busy semester. :icon_sad or get back on Stronglifts, since i'm still technically a beginner? I will also be grappling/kickboxing 2 days a week, more if i can manage.

Opinions? Thanks in advance guys.

If one day per week is your limit for strength training, you could try Wendler's 5/3/1 which has a One Day Per Week Template. The problem is, 5/3/1 is better for Intermediates than Noobs like you(and I:wink.

Body By Science is a fucking terrible program. You would get more benefit from just doing Bodyweight Training a few days per week than one day in the Gym with BBS.

 

[Mumrik]

I'm only 3 weeks in, but kinda iffy on the program so far. I think it's just too difficult to go to true failure with the equipment i'm using. (I currently have a power rack, bench, pullup bar, and free weights available to me.) Once i get back in school though, i'll have plenty of machines available at the school facility to spot myself with. What i'm wondering is, should i stick with the Body by Science program, (1 day a week would be easy to stick to, i'm gonna have a crazy busy semester. :icon_sad or get back on Stronglifts, since i'm still technically a beginner? I will also be grappling/kickboxing 2 days a week, more if i can manage.

Opinions? Thanks in advance guys.

Hold it right there player. Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?
A) Don't use machines. The free weights you're using now are the optimal solution (stay the fuck out of the Smith machine).
B) How is the power rack not enough to properly spot you? You ARE squatting inside the rack, right? Unless you meant to write squat rack the power rack should allow you to relatively safely do most lifts.

As for the argument for doing the reps slowly - what do you want to be good at - moving a heavy weight slowly or doing it fast and explosively?
Which of those two do you think will translate best to your martial arts training?

It should be pretty straight forward.

 

[deckingdutchman]

First: Machines = no no. You don't work the balance muscles, are forced in an unnatural range of motion, etc. It's bad.

Second: You should absolutely not lift the weights as slow as possible. Yes, you get more time under tension for your muscles (this is why bodybuilders tend to think it's a good idea), but you'll be adapting your CNS to move weights slowly. You don't wanna be slow. It'll kill your force/power production, that's basic physics. A lot of gains in strength are increases in CNS efficiency anyway, not just muscle size.

 

[TigerArm]

Hold it right there player. Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?
A) Don't use machines. The free weights you're using now are the optimal solution (stay the fuck out of the Smith machine).
B) How is the power rack not enough to properly spot you? You ARE squatting inside the rack, right? Unless you meant to write squat rack the power rack should allow you to relatively safely do most lifts.

As for the argument for doing the reps slowly - what do you want to be good at - moving a heavy weight slowly or doing it fast and explosively?
Which of those two do you think will translate best to your martial arts training?

It should be pretty straight forward.

Yes, i'm lifting inside the rack. :icon_lol:

And i know free weights are better for the reasons already mentioned. There are arguments to the contrary in the book though, but i won't get into them. What i meant was that it seems to be hard to get to true muscular failure.. i always seem to stop a rep or so before actually failing so i don't have to bail the bar onto the safety pins. Mostly a psychological thing, i guess.

Anyway. I'm probably just going to go back to the 5x5. I went through the FAQ and i'm also kind of intrigued by the 20 rep squat programs, they sound brutal. I do have a few questions though; why 1x20 instead of just 5x5? And would it be a good idea to do 1x20 squats along with the rest of the stronglifts program (5x5 OHP, bench, dead) or should i do it exactly as prescribed in the FAQ with the bodyweight circuit afterward? (I'm assuming that's to help prevent extra fat gain with the GOMAD diet?)

 

[SignalZero]

Lotsa folks out there loooove to disregard facts supported by science...

 

[deckingdutchman]

Yes, i'm lifting inside the rack. :icon_lol:

And i know free weights are better for the reasons already mentioned. There are arguments to the contrary in the book though, but i won't get into them. What i meant was that it seems to be hard to get to true muscular failure.. i always seem to stop a rep or so before actually failing so i don't have to bail the bar onto the safety pins. Mostly a psychological thing, i guess.

Anyway. I'm probably just going to go back to the 5x5. I went through the FAQ and i'm also kind of intrigued by the 20 rep squat programs, they sound brutal. I do have a few questions though; why 1x20 instead of just 5x5? And would it be a good idea to do 1x20 squats along with the rest of the stronglifts program (5x5 OHP, bench, dead) or should i do it exactly as prescribed in the FAQ with the bodyweight circuit afterward? (I'm assuming that's to help prevent extra fat gain with the GOMAD diet?)

If you can do a true 20 rep squat routine AND 5x5, you got some serious balls.

Props to you if you try, but it's probably smarter to stick to just the 20 rep squat or 5x5 and slowly increase your work capacity if that's your goal.

 

[TigerArm]

If you can do a true 20 rep squat routine AND 5x5, you got some serious balls.

Props to you if you try, but it's probably smarter to stick to just the 20 rep squat or 5x5 and slowly increase your work capacity if that's your goal.

LOL, i wish i was that gnarly. I meant replacing the 5x5 squat in the stronglifts program with a 1x20 set, then doing 5x5 OHP, bench, and deadlift.

 

[PowerHungry]

Lotsa folks out there loooove to disregard facts supported by science...

What are you referring to exactly?

 

[theBrookDweller]

"My own opinion of Greg [Glassman] is that he has done more to legitimize actual training in the minds of the public than any other person since Arthur Jones destroyed it in the mid-70s. "

-Rip

I mention this because someone mentioned that this sounded like Mike Mentzer's BB type routine, MM was an advocate of the HIT training which was brought to him by Arthur Jones, inventor of the Nautilus machine, and we all know how much machines are hated here.

As for the slow movement stuff, I think that if you want to supplement your MA training you would want to generate a shit ton of force, and since force = mass x acceleration the obvious thing to do here is to move as fast as possible. When training slowly for technique that is absolutely ok, but for generating power for strength gains and power gains which can be used in martial arts, I think that moving fast and explosively is best.