Questions about a Fighter's Union

[wwkirk]

Everybody knows the fighters in the UFC are officially "independent contractors." So, my first question is whether this means they are legally prohibited from unionizing? If so, I will automatically have the answer to my second question, which is why no viable union has already formed?

But if they are already free to unionize, what's the impediment? I always hear about the top fighters not joining in, but why should that be decisive? Everybody else could still unionize anyway.

Even though I'm mainly thinking about the UFC, it occurs to me that a union might need to be industry wide, or at least across multiple organizations. This is because fighters are constantly leaving one organization and signing with another.

Another thought, team sports wouldn't appear to be a logical model for a MMA Fighter's Union. Would it need to be similar to the PGA or The Association of Tennis Professionals?

 

[abject]

Everybody knows the fighters in the UFC are officially "independent contractors." So, my first question is whether this means they are legally prohibited from unionizing? If so, I will automatically have the answer to my second question, which is why no viable union has already formed?

But if they are already free to unionize, what's the impediment? I always hear about the top fighters not joining in, but why should that be decisive? Everybody else could still unionize anyway.

Even though I'm mainly thinking about the UFC, it occurs to me that a union might need to be industry wide, or at least across multiple organizations. This is because fighters are constantly leaving one organization and signing with another.

Another thought, team sports wouldn't appear to be a logical model for a MMA Fighter's Union. Would it need to be similar to the PGA or The Association of Tennis Professionals?

Capitalism doesnt mix well with unions. They spread the wealth around. Something the one percenters like Dana and the other owners dont like.

 

[sampuncher]

 

[defjaam]

Neoliberalism is ruling the western world of this planet. So not gonna happen any time soon.

 

[DOMMA]

Capitalism doesnt mix well with unions. They spread the wealth around. Something the one percenters like Dana and the other owners dont like.

We have all seen how socialism and communism work, capitalism is not perfect, but is far better than any alternative.

 

[DOMMA]

Unions suck. They are the reason our schools suck and why the US struggles to compete globally. Do you know why our manufacturing base has moved overseas - yep, unions. Oh but sport unions are different, BS. Just saw this recent example of another reason Unions suck.

"When the National Football League drafts its next crop of players this weekend, those draftees will have to be careful about what's showing on their in-home camera. Don't drink anything but Pepsi products, don't snack on anything but Frito-Lay brands, and don't do any video interviews using Apple AirPods. And definitely don't try to make a few bucks by hawking a motor oil other than Castrol or a mattress company other than Sleep Number. The league union has threatened to keep any player off-camera if an NFL sponsor's competitor would otherwise be onscreen. It's just one of the ways NFL rules keep young players from realizing their true market value, thanks to the league's union.

"The value of unions has passed but the organization lingers like a persistent rash continuing to stifle innovation and suck energy from the economy. Unions solved their last problem more than half a century ago. In our time they are a horrid relic that promotes mediocrity and corruption."

 

[Deleted member 465145]

Unions suck. They are the reason our schools suck and why the US struggles to compete globally. Do you know why our manufacturing base has moved overseas - yep, unions. Oh but sport unions are different, BS. Just saw this recent example of another reason Unions suck.

"When the National Football League drafts its next crop of players this weekend, those draftees will have to be careful about what's showing on their in-home camera. Don't drink anything but Pepsi products, don't snack on anything but Frito-Lay brands, and don't do any video interviews using Apple AirPods. And definitely don't try to make a few bucks by hawking a motor oil other than Castrol or a mattress company other than Sleep Number. The league union has threatened to keep any player off-camera if an NFL sponsor's competitor would otherwise be onscreen. It's just one of the ways NFL rules keep young players from realizing their true market value, thanks to the league's union.

"The value of unions has passed but the organization lingers like a persistent rash continuing to stifle innovation and suck energy from the economy. Unions solved their last problem more than half a century ago. In our time they are a horrid relic that promotes mediocrity and corruption."

This is some shill shit right here. The UFC can’t outsource their competition because they already have and because they need the best or most wwe-character fighters to do so. It’s not like they just need a warm body. While unions have faltered in several aspects it is indisputable that they’ve improved conditions for workers and without question this would benefit MMA fighters as well.
Further, just because you went to some dogshit school does not mean that schools everywhere suck. There are tons of very good public and private learning institutions and teachers unions haven’t held kids hostage everywhere.
If you think being unable to eat fuckin Doritos on draft night is a bigger problem than being paid like a Walmart shift manager then your priorities are backwards. Very few things in life are all good or bad.

 

[acannxr]

Everybody knows the fighters in the UFC are officially "independent contractors." So, my first question is whether this means they are legally prohibited from unionizing? If so, I will automatically have the answer to my second question, which is why no viable union has already formed?

But if they are already free to unionize, what's the impediment? I always hear about the top fighters not joining in, but why should that be decisive? Everybody else could still unionize anyway.

Even though I'm mainly thinking about the UFC, it occurs to me that a union might need to be industry wide, or at least across multiple organizations. This is because fighters are constantly leaving one organization and signing with another.

Another thought, team sports wouldn't appear to be a logical model for a MMA Fighter's Union. Would it need to be similar to the PGA or The Association of Tennis Professionals?

Because fighters are considered independent contractors, it's illegal for them to try and form a union. A fighter would first have to submit their contract to the National Labor Relations Board for them to evaluate whether or not the contract has enough control by the employer for the employee to be considered non-IC. If the contract is considered non-IC, then at least 30% of the roster would have to sign cards declaring their desire to be represented by a union to the NLRB for approval.

 

[DOMMA]

This is some shill shit right here. The UFC can’t outsource their competition because they already have and because they need the best or most wwe-character fighters to do so. It’s not like they just need a warm body. While unions have faltered in several aspects it is indisputable that they’ve improved conditions for workers and without question this would benefit MMA fighters as well.
Further, just because you went to some dogshit school does not mean that schools everywhere suck. There are tons of very good public and private learning institutions and teachers unions haven’t held kids hostage everywhere.
If you think being unable to eat fuckin Doritos on draft night is a bigger problem than being paid like a Walmart shift manager then your priorities are backwards. Very few things in life are all good or bad.

We can agree to disagree. I have seen what unions have done to our schools and manufacturing base in our country. Unions were useful when companies were abusing employees with long hours and unsafe work conditions. I saw my town, once a prosperous, thriving town, destroyed because every manufacturing plant pulled out due to taxes and unions. These jobs are now in India and China. Union's day has come and gone. I certainly appreciate differing views, this is my opinion.

 

[mjmj]

TS, the first thing you need to understand is the definition of a "union". Because I don't think you have a good grasp of what it actually is and how it works.

 

[abject]

We have all seen how socialism and communism work, capitalism is not perfect, but is far better than any alternative.

Hows the violence and inequality working out. Pretty sure there are more people in poverty in usa than russia. Tell this story to china in a few years. Take a trip to scandanavia where there is fairness and equality. The usa is self destructing and you still champion capitalism. I'm all for free enterprise but full blown capitalism is as bad as full blown communism. I'm pretty sure during the capitalist great depression people lined up for food. Mind blown.

 

[DOMMA]

Hows the violence and inequality working out. Pretty sure there are more people in poverty in usa than russia. Tell this story to china in a few years. Take a trip to Scandinavian where there is fairness and equality. The usa is self destructing and you still champion capitalism. I'm all for free enterprise but full blown capitalism is as bad as full blown communism. I'm pretty sure during the capitalist great depression people lined up for food. Mind blown.

Look at the way they measure poverty in Russia vs. the US, you might be surprised.

Scandinavian is an nearly white country with a population much smaller than CA. Scandinavian countries are not, by any reasonable definition, socialist. They are capitalist countries that are fighting to distance themselves from Socialism.

There is no national minimum wage in Sweden, Denmark or Norway and everyone who works, pays taxes....imagine that.

At 45.9%, Denmark has one of the highest tax burdens in the world. Tax rates are also fairly flat so even medium and lower income households pay relatively high levels of tax compared with the progressive systems in the US.

 

[jitzmonkey]

We have all seen how socialism and communism work, capitalism is not perfect, but is far better than any alternative.

That looks like a modern American grocery store.
Are we pretending that America's been a purely Capitalist country since FDR?

 

[El Fernas]

People care about the big names, they get paid and they dont need/care to join, its every man for himself, this is more about individuals forcing the promoter's hand, in boxing not every guy makes millions, even when they fight the big names they dont make the same as the big name, in the end its about growing your own brand and then the UFC will pay.

 

[Franklin U.]

This is actually the epitome of union talk in the UFC. This is all nice and looks good ( and this has been done before ) but the proverbial line is never crossed.

 

[San Griente]

Everybody knows the fighters in the UFC are officially "independent contractors." So, my first question is whether this means they are legally prohibited from unionizing? If so, I will automatically have the answer to my second question, which is why no viable union has already formed?

But if they are already free to unionize, what's the impediment? I always hear about the top fighters not joining in, but why should that be decisive? Everybody else could still unionize anyway.

Even though I'm mainly thinking about the UFC, it occurs to me that a union might need to be industry wide, or at least across multiple organizations. This is because fighters are constantly leaving one organization and signing with another.

Another thought, team sports wouldn't appear to be a logical model for a MMA Fighter's Union. Would it need to be similar to the PGA or The Association of Tennis Professionals?

They cannot form a union until they win a court case reclassifying them as employees, not contractors.

even then, it will be difficult, as UFC has control of the fighters’ minds, via their coaches

If the fighters ever start to organize, the coaches will “active visualization” (ie brainwash) the fook out of them

 

[Dirge]

They cannot form a union until they win a court case reclassifying them as employees, not contractors.

even then, it will be difficult, as UFC has control of the fighters’ minds, via their coaches

If the fighters ever start to organize, the coaches will “active visualization” (ie brainwash) the fook out of them

That's not an accurate summary. Of course independent contractors can form a union. There are plenty of them in both Canada and the US. Tradesmen for example (electricians, plumbers etc).

There is no law in the US prohibiting the fighters from forming a union. Them winning a lawsuit that defines them as employees isn't really about unionizing but rather about the UFC having predatory employment practices and prohibiting fighters that they define as independent contractors from working for other employers simultaneously.

The UFC is using the IC definition to get out of having any responsibility to the fighters and also to ensure that they can terminate their contracts at any time without consequences (Severance, pension etc). If the fighters are able to be defined as employees, they will have the protections that employees have in the US and also get paid vacation, pension contribution, be able to claim unemployment insurance etc if let get go.

The only thing a union will do for UFC fighters is give them the ability to collectively negotiate for better pay. It will not help them to become employees.

 

[San Griente]

That's not an accurate summary. Of course independent contractors can form a union. There are plenty of them in both Canada and the US. Tradesmen for example (electricians, plumbers etc).

There is no law in the US prohibiting the fighters from forming a union. Them winning a lawsuit that defines them as employees isn't really about unionizing but rather about the UFC having predatory employment practices and prohibiting fighters that they define as independent contractors from working for other employers simultaneously.

The UFC is using the IC definition to get out of having any responsibility to the fighters and also to ensure that they can terminate their contracts at any time without consequences (Severance, pension etc). If the fighters are able to be defined as employees, they will have the protections that employees have in the US and also get paid vacation, pension contribution, be able to claim unemployment insurance etc if let get go.

The only thing a union will do for UFC fighters is give them the ability to collectively negotiate for better pay. It will not help them to become employees.

IC’s can join a union, but they can’t be covered by a union contract. Nor is the company required to recognize their union. So they remain non-union.

It’s always been like this, and the NLRB made it extra-official in 2019 with their ruling in SuperShuttleDFW.

 

[wwkirk]

TS, the first thing you need to understand is the definition of a "union". Because I don't think you have a good grasp of what it actually is and how it works.

That's part of the reason for the thread. What are some key points I'm missing?

 

[wwkirk]

You may have missed the word "viable."