question re bjj guys in mma

[devante]

seems like alot of guys have great skills from the top, esp working w/the takedowns, i.e. throws, trips, shots, etc; an of course working the gnp or variety of submissions from top control.

BUT

alot of bjj guys don't seem to be very good off their backs offensively, defensively solid; maybe good enough to sweep or get back up. But not very effective at finishing effectively against the better guys in the div w/great top control and good submission def.

kenny florian mark bocek joe stevenson diego sanchez dan miller and a few others standout to me, as guys who are masterful from the top; but have little to no game from the bottom, outside of defense. Not saying they can't finish lesser guys; but the better more experienced and physically gifted guys its a wrap; the talk of not taking them down for fear of being finished loses some weight as alot of guys aren't good at finishing when taken down.

im not the expert at grappling, but its something i noticed, especially in the case of the guys i mentioned; all of which are bjj blkblts and considered good to very very good grapplers..esp w/in the context of mma.

wasn't part of the bjj thing, the ability to def. counter and effectively attack from the guard.... at this point what is the diff between most high level mma bjj guys and wrestlers w/submissions; both work from the top and can control or finish, both aren't all that effective from their backs offensively, outside of sweeps/escapes

thoughts/opinions

 

[nefti]

kenny floran was never a top bjj guy. Good, yes. but never top. And bj never really liked attacking from his back. IF anything he perfered to stand up or try to take someone's back.


Wresters are putting the time in to learn bjj and sub defence the right way. It's not 1999 anymore.

 

[Mike Wilson Jr.]

Its easy to sit there and say they dont have offensive guards, while youre the one behind the keyboard, and they are the ones getting punched by guys like Frankie Edgar and Gray Maynard.

 

[nefti]

and even in mma kenny isn't a guard guy. but then again we just saw anderson triangle sonnen from his guard not to long ago.

 

[ostapbjj]

Playing the bottom game in MMA is a losing battle. And I'm not just talking about from the judges point of view. It is very hard to sub an opponent that is a professional fighter. Everyone know submissions and it's much easier to prevent and defend submissions than it is to successfully execute them.

Sure you can spend your time on your back waiting for the opportunity to finish with a submission against a sweaty professional fighter that it trying to crush your skull. Or you can do your best to try and sweep or get back to your feet where you have a greater chance of winning.

 

[devante]

i pose the question in light of the fact that when these guys can't get the top or maintain it or get taken down and can't get back up or sweep; what are their options or alternatives in regards to this issue. You would have to be able to finish from your back otherwise your going to lose, guys like bocek florian stevenson miller aren't guys who's wrestling is good enough to constantly keep from being planted and if they can't effectively finish from the bottom then that would mean that anyone who can put them on their ass is more or less going to win

im not bashing the guys, im asking a)what are their alternatives and b) what would be the diff between the bjj guy and the wrestler w/submissions, neither is really effective fighting off the back; the difference being the bjj guy (in theory) is supp to be effective fighting from there.

sometimes you have to play the bottom and if you can't finish or effectively threaten then what...i know you can improve your def/off wrestling; but when u face the better guys that isn't gonna work and your gonna be forced to fight from that position.

 

[nefti]

well you are only looking at the offensive aspects of the guard. Just being able to not get seriously damanged is a feat in itself. A wrestler won't have that.

 

[nefti]

also other than bj all the guys you mentioned have accomplished little to nothing in major bjj competitions.

 

[FyouKantCme]

TS, train bjj for a year or 2, then you'll understand.

 

[shouldercharge]

and b) what would be the diff between the bjj guy and the wrestler w/submissions, neither is really effective fighting off the back; the difference being the bjj guy (in theory) is supp to be effective fighting from there.

the wrestler is a lot less likely to get stuck in that position in the first place

 

[Supereem]

When it comes to world class guards, guys like Maia and Roger Gracie are lethal and there are very few people on the entire planet that will willingly go into their guards.

On the other hand we have guys like Aoki and to some extent guys like Wand who have trained extensively on their bottom games and very few would willingly linger in their guards.

Wand for example was a muay thai fighter, but knowing hed be taken down worked extensively on his guard. Not only was/is it incredibly hard to hurt him from guard but he was also very active and even almost arm-bared Hidehiko Yoshida, not an easy feat. Guys like Thiago Silva/ Paulo Thiago or Joe Daddy are supposed submission grappler's, but their bottom games suck. Why? Because even though they are submission grappler's they have neglected their guards, for various reasons ranging from a love of top control to a dismissal of its usefulness and therefore suck of their backs.

One also has to remember guys like Frankie/Maynard were/almost were all American wrestlers and were at the top of their food chains. Guys like Florian , although a black belt, were not world class black belts. If Maynard took down an ADCC champ and grinded out a decision that would be a great feat. To Kenny Florian however? Not quite...

 

[devante]

When it comes to world class guards, guys like Maia and Roger Gracie are lethal and there are very few people on the entire planet that will willingly go into their guards.

On the other hand we have guys like Aoki and to some extent guys like Wand who have trained extensively on their bottom games and very few would willingly linger in their guards.
Wand for example was a muay thai fighter, but knowing hed be taken down worked extensively on his guard. Not only was/is it incredibly hard to hurt him from guard but he was also very active and even almost arm-bared Hidehiko Yoshida, not an easy feat. Guys like Thiago Silva/ Paulo Thiago or Joe Daddy are supposed submission grappler's, but their bottom games suck. Why? Because even though they are submission grappler's they have neglected their guards, for various reasons ranging from a love of top control to a dismissal of its usefulness and therefore suck of their backs.
One also has to remember guys like Frankie/Maynard were/almost were all American wrestlers and were at the top of their food chains. Guys like Florian , although a black belt, were not world class black belts. If Maynard took down an ADCC champ and grinded out a decision that would be a great feat. To Kenny Florian however? Not quite...

thanks for the response, this is more of what i was looking for; or trying to get to, do you think that a renewed focus on guardwork would be more of a benefit or should the issue be just a matter of working that much harder to create scrambles or just not get taken down.

i understand that guys are awfully familiar w/the ground game and that will negate some of the effectiveness of the guard or guys working from their back; but given that the better wrrestlers and there are now alot of them in mma, can and will put you on your ass. What do you do, you can't asssume you will just def every takedown or get back up from everyone; or i guess you can, but wouldn't an emphasis on working offensively from your guard be another alternative, that way a) you can finish or b) create opp to get back up or escape because you have that threat.

guys known or thought of being top control only have a target on them saying once on their back they are gonna do one thing, or are only capable of doing one thing; so that is where they are going. Are guys actively working on the guard game, an if not shouldn't they be; esp w/so many high level college and sometimes world class wrestlers coming into the game at earlier stages (maynard edgar warren lawal mendes koscheck lesnar cormier etc etc)

its the reverse of the old, if he can't get me to the ground i will win; just def the submission guys takedown attempts wear him down, beat him up and even if he gets u down he is more or less unable to put in work.

 

[Supereem]

thanks for the response, this is more of what i was looking for; or trying to get to, do you think that a renewed focus on guardwork would be more of a benefit or should the issue be just a matter of working that much harder to create scrambles or just not get taken down.

i understand that guys are awfully familiar w/the ground game and that will negate some of the effectiveness of the guard or guys working from their back; but given that the better wrrestlers and there are now alot of them in mma, can and will put you on your ass. What do you do, you can't asssume you will just def every takedown or get back up from everyone; or i guess you can, but wouldn't an emphasis on working offensively from your guard be another alternative, that way a) you can finish or b) create opp to get back up or escape because you have that threat.

guys known or thought of being top control only have a target on them saying once on their back they are gonna do one thing, or are only capable of doing one thing; so that is where they are going. Are guys actively working on the guard game, an if not shouldn't they be; esp w/so many high level college and sometimes world class wrestlers coming into the game at earlier stages (maynard edgar warren lawal mendes koscheck lesnar cormier etc etc)

its the reverse of the old, if he can't get me to the ground i will win; just def the submission guys takedown attempts wear him down, beat him up and even if he gets u down he is more or less unable to put in work.

I think unless you are GSP or built like a brick shit house like Ricardo Arona, as a submission grappler you are never going to taking down the wrestling power houses that have become a staple of MMA. I think that focusing on being offensive from the guard, whether it be sweeps or submissions, is critical to success.

This is a big ask, as your ground game has to be the equivalent of the wrestlers top game, which is usually by todays standards at a world class level, but it is more than possible. Guys like Jacare, Aoki, Maia, Big Nog, Roger Gracie, Werdum, George Sotiropolous, Vinny.M from TUF all have excellent guards and most of their opponents make a point of avoiding the ground at all costs with them, even if they land on top. Those who do dive to the ground with these guys don't usually last, in the sense that they are either submitted or lose dominant position (although there are exceptions - as there is with everything). But I think as long as fighters strive to make it part of their game it can be very effective, as opposed to ignoring it like alot of fighters (something I have seen in person).

I think Minotauro is a great example, as he is someone who truly advocates the guard as an advantageous in MMA, and as of recently (so disregarding Fedor) his guard has really evolved to a level that people have dreaded it at all costs, whether it was Herring or Tim Sylvia refusing to enter it even after he rocked him or how he easily swept Couture twice into full mount - the same Couture that drew with Jacare in a pure grappling match. This is also the same Minotauro that was never considered anything too special in pure grappling before MMA (although I do think his pure grappling has improved leaps and bounds since his stint in ADCC or even his performance against Fedor).

 

[DiscipleOfPog]

The fact is, the top is the better place to be, whether you're in pure Jiu-Jitsu comp. or in MMA. BJJ rules favor the top position because it is the better place to be for being offensive, crushing your opponent with pressure and then submitting him. In MMA, the judges favor the top position because it is the better place to be for ground and pound and submissions.

So it's not that these guys don't have good games from the guard, it's just that these guys are all so skilled in every aspect of the game that they're going to be better on top because it's the better position.

You also have to realize that in BJJ there are so many techniques that work off of the opponents reactions. An opponent in your guard is constantly trying to posture up, break your guard, and pass. A lot of sweeps and submissions come from the opponent attempting this. BJJ guys are used to the movements of other BJJ guys playing the top game against them.
Now in an MMA fight, the opponent doesn't have to play a game that you are used to. He can bury his head in your chest, hands in your biceps, and slowly work ground and pound to your body, to your head, and then suddenly work the pass. There is less of a rhythm in an MMA fight, which makes the top an even better place to be.

 

[Mat Nemesis**]

one thing that works well but is rarely used is baiting your opponent.

The triangle maia had on sonnen was beautiful, he let sonnen put himself right into it.

It is tough to go directly to sub unless guy is really careless. But if you make your opponent react the way you want to and then sub him from there, that is much more effective obviously.

 

[devante]

I think unless you are GSP or built like a brick shit house like Ricardo Arona, as a submission grappler you are never going to taking down the wrestling power houses that have become a staple of MMA. I think that focusing on being offensive from the guard, whether it be sweeps or submissions, is critical to success.

This is a big ask, as your ground game has to be the equivalent of the wrestlers top game, which is usually by todays standards at a world class level, but it is more than possible. Guys like Jacare, Aoki, Maia, Big Nog, Roger Gracie, Werdum, George Sotiropolous, Vinny.M from TUF all have excellent guards and most of their opponents make a point of avoiding the ground at all costs with them, even if they land on top. Those who do dive to the ground with these guys don't usually last, in the sense that they are either submitted or lose dominant position (although there are exceptions - as there is with everything). But I think as long as fighters strive to make it part of their game it can be very effective, as opposed to ignoring it like alot of fighters (something I have seen in person).



I think Minotauro is a great example, as he is someone who truly advocates the guard as an advantageous in MMA, and as of recently (so disregarding Fedor) his guard has really evolved to a level that people have dreaded it at all costs, whether it was Herring or Tim Sylvia refusing to enter it even after he rocked him or how he easily swept Couture twice into full mount - the same Couture that drew with Jacare in a pure grappling match. This is also the same Minotauro that was never considered anything too special in pure grappling before MMA (although I do think his pure grappling has improved leaps and bounds since his stint in ADCC or even his performance against Fedor).

my point exactly its almost impossible to defend the takedowns from all the guys coming into mma; there are just too many high level wrestlers and that isn't even factoring in their athletic advantage, which is especially noticeable against a less than dynamic fighter such as kenny florian joe stevenson the miller bros or bocek. How can you not be really working your skills in this position you are ALMOST guaranteed to be put in at the higher levels against pellegrinos diaz's hazletts guida's sanchez's huertas and so on; you may be able to focus on a top game and takedown def, but when facing the penns-st pierres-koschecks-edgars-maynards your gonna have to have more. An since the guys i mention lack the wrestling and ability to reverse or create scrambles; then they are gonna have to be able to fight from where they are from and OUTGRAPPLE their opp.

an while they work on everything their ability to be off from the guard at a high level in mma seems to be iffy at best nonexistent at worst, except def. In the case of kenny its like he didn't even prepare for being taken down and being kept down; an it seems like against a guy w/gray's wrestling and physical ability, you had to had to at least work on what happens if you end up in that position. I mean much better wrestlers have been controlled by maynard and guys w/much better def wrestling have been as well...

thanks for the explanation its appreciated.

 

[Supereem]

The fact is, the top is the better place to be, whether you're in pure Jiu-Jitsu comp. or in MMA. BJJ rules favor the top position because it is the better place to be for being offensive, crushing your opponent with pressure and then submitting him. In MMA, the judges favor the top position because it is the better place to be for ground and pound and submissions.

So it's not that these guys don't have good games from the guard, it's just that these guys are all so skilled in every aspect of the game that they're going to be better on top because it's the better position.

You also have to realize that in BJJ there are so many techniques that work off of the opponents reactions. An opponent in your guard is constantly trying to posture up, break your guard, and pass. A lot of sweeps and submissions come from the opponent attempting this. BJJ guys are used to the movements of other BJJ guys playing the top game against them.
Now in an MMA fight, the opponent doesn't have to play a game that you are used to. He can bury his head in your chest, hands in your biceps, and slowly work ground and pound to your body, to your head, and then suddenly work the pass. There is less of a rhythm in an MMA fight, which makes the top an even better place to be.

I disagree. In pure grappling, many of the worlds BEST purposely let guys like Roger Gracie and Braulio Estima land on top because they do anything to AVOID their guards. The same could be said for them in MMA in the near future.