Question for judokas

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by MosHonorableSan, Sep 1, 2015.

  1. MosHonorableSan

    MosHonorableSan White Belt

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    So I've been training judo for maybe a little under two years. And I train at a club that is very competition oriented. So they do drill a lot and I like that. I guess my question would be, how exactly does one work on that "empty jacket" style of play during randori? Since there is a lot of grip breaking and pace pushing.

    I am probably over thinking this but regardless I appreciate any input
     
  2. GmGolden1

    GmGolden1 White Belt

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    Put in 15 more years of training. That's just the result of incredible skill, balance and timing.
     
  3. RJ Green

    RJ Green Black Belt

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    if you want to learn judo, do judo
    if you want to improve judo, do more judo
     
  4. MosHonorableSan

    MosHonorableSan White Belt

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    Well yeah there's no secret to getting better, but a lot of time I feel as though I expend a lot of energy
     
  5. MosHonorableSan

    MosHonorableSan White Belt

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    I see, thank you
     
  6. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    You do. It takes more than 2 years to become efficient in randori. More like 8-10 honestly. It's a long, long process. And it helps to be much better than most of the people you go with, grappling someone your own level when you're both really trying to win is always, always physically demanding.
     
  7. MosHonorableSan

    MosHonorableSan White Belt

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    I was hoping I'd get a reply from you lol so I guess I should perhaps refine this question. I should try to focus on technique as much as possible during sparring. What else should I try to focus on doing? Winning is becoming less important the longer I've grappled
     
  8. GmGolden1

    GmGolden1 White Belt

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    Uchikomi, nagekomi and randori. When doing randori, attack, attack, attack! Be OK with being countered. The learning curve is much longer for Judo than BJJ in my opinion. I've been doing judo longer than BJJ but I feel much more in control when doing BJJ.
     
  9. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    In sparring you should focus on throwing people. Sparring is not the time to worry about technique. It's too fast paced with too many variables. Additionally, throwing people is often not pretty. A perfect throw is a gift from the gods but it's hardly the norm. I think the most effective way to use sparring depends on who you're sparring against. Basically against people way above you, just do the best you can and try to throw them and survive. Against people your own level or lower, you should have specific things you want to work on and work on those. So for example, let's say you're working on integrating uchi mata into your game. What are your preferred grips? How are you going to get them? What you are your preferred movement setups? How are you going to force uke to put his feet in the configuration you want to enter the throw? Have an answer or two to each of those questions and just practice those. Your randori should be very intentional when you're working with someone at or slightly below your own level (really below your own level, be nice and just play). Using sparring effectively to improve requires a lot of thought off the mat. You should always, always have specific things you're working on, the only exception being the 4 weeks or so before an important tournament where you want to concentrate on refining your core gripping and throwing sequences and attacking quickly and powerfully until uke falls.

    I'll give you a concrete example from my own practice. I've always had a good sweeping style kouchi gari, but I've never been very good at the 'twitch' form of kouchi that tends to score a lot higher in high level competition. To execute that throw, I really want uke to have a deep, wide stance and be pulling slightly back, or at least sitting down in their stance. I also want to have a high collar or underhook with my power hand and a low sleeve grip with my hikite hand. So now I know what I'm aiming for, how do I get there? Well, I have sequences I like for getting my preferred grip against a right or left handed player, so I'll use those. Against a righty the correct foot (his right) is forward, so I just need to get him into a low stance. I can do that by threatening uchi mata while pulling uke forward at 45* to his right. That's my setup I want to practice against righties. Against lefties, I have to get uke to switch his feet. I can do this by attacking either ouchi or kosoto gari, depending on the angle. Once his feet are switched, same 45* forward pull. I'll spend the whole randori period trying to get my grips, use those setups, and then try the throw. I want to succeed of course, but more importantly is did I throw uke with the move I was working on? Do that with one or two moves for a few months and you'll be amazed how much more effective your Judo gets.
     
  10. QingTian

    QingTian Purple Belt

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    1. Learn to use your balance to defend... and attack.
    2. Don't do anything that the opponent can directly oppose.
    3. All your movements should be working to off balance uke. If not, it's wasted energy that your opponent can use.

    Yup... it'll take a while to get efficient. Good luck!
     
  11. QingTian

    QingTian Purple Belt

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    Uchi, check out how Keiji Suzuki does his kouchi. It might be better for tall players. Basically you are off to the side and you push him over moreso than sweep. That way you don't have to be deep in center. Not textbook though, oi!
     
  12. JudokaUK

    JudokaUK Green Belt

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    I'm not Uchi Mata, but I don't think your feeling that you should have achieved competency and fluency after 2 years is unfounded.

    I also think the whole 10-15 years stuff is overblown. After all, that pretty much implies you have to start at age 10 and keep training through to 20-25, which hardly anyone does.

    If someone starts age 30 and is told it'll take them 10 to 15 years to get competent, why even bother?

    Some concrete concepts/ things you can do to improve:

    Drill Kuzushi properly

    Understand how to control and use space

    Learn how to be a good uke

    These things may help, they may not, but they're at least concrete actionable things to think about.
     
  13. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    That's what I'm working on. More of a block and drive than a clean sweep. I can actually do the sweeping style quite well, but it's hard to use in combinations.
     
  14. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    You can get decent faster than that, but the question was about effortless fluidity, which to me implies mastery. And mastery takes a long time, most people never come close. You can be decent at most things just by learning the basics and exhausting your noob gains. In fact that's what I think most people do in most of their pursuits (practically speaking mastering lots of stuff is impossible due to time constraints). That said, to really get excellent at anything to where you understand the subtleties and can perform at a high level under stress takes thousands of hours of concentrated practice. Judo included. I just think most people including advanced dan grades aren't really masters of Judo. Many people get to black belt, maybe 2nd or 3rd dan, and just do the same stuff over and over. Unless you're continually working over a decade or more to refine your skills you're probably not getting much better. A big part of that is people transition to teaching too early and thus lose a lot of time for advanced skill development, which is why often only elite competitors who don't fall into the 'distraction' of teaching attain what I'd consider to be true mastery.
     
  15. QingTian

    QingTian Purple Belt

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    I think we're not quite thinking the same thing. It's more sweeping to the side, like you are opening uke's legs. And a punch to the face finishes the throw.

    Don't need a big sweep, just a knock is enough if you had uke's weight planted equally on both feet.
     
  16. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    I think we are. You're trying to make uke do the splits a little, then drive them over towards the now-weak back angle. That's actually how it works most often in BJJ, which is what I really train my standup for these days anyway.
     
  17. QingTian

    QingTian Purple Belt

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    Oh, when you said drive I pictured running through uke.
     
  18. killakoy

    killakoy Purple Belt

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    Dammit... I think you just summed me up nicely.

    TS - Everyone's a little different. For me, when I randori, I take into account who I'm working with. If it's someone more advanced than me, I try to be very technical and pay attention to what they're doing so I can learn from their movements. If it's someone around my level, I go hard and just try to throw/win. If it's someone lower than my level, I try to practice combinations that I'm less skilled with and other new techniques that I want to get better at.

    I think that sometimes people put an over-emphasis on fluidity and technique. While this is optimum, there's a lot of "fight" that is a part of a match and this needs to be present in training. The problem is that this aspect is usually ignored and this really hinders a person when you compete as you train.

    Also, I think that no matter what your level is, you always feel that there's more that you need to learn.
     

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