Question about 10th Planet JJ

[jlane]

If I'm talking bollocks, then feel free to disregard this thread. I'm making no attempt to troll, just want to clarify something.

10th Planet seems to be made out as if its THE no-gi grappling system, but why aren't its practitioners tearing up major nogi tournaments? I'm just looking through the ADCC winners from past competitions and I just keep seeing guys like Werdum, Drysdale, Garcia, Ribeiro, Maia, etc; all guys I thought came from traditional BJJ backgrounds.

Can anyone shed some light on this?

 

[Supereem]

If I'm talking bollocks, then feel free to disregard this thread. I'm making no attempt to troll, just want to clarify something.

10th Planet seems to be made out as if its THE no-gi grappling system, but why aren't its practitioners tearing up major nogi tournaments? I'm just looking through the ADCC winners from past competitions and I just keep seeing guys like Werdum, Drysdale, Garcia, Ribeiro, Maia, etc; all guys I thought came from traditional BJJ backgrounds.

Can anyone shed some light on this?

Well...what do you think it means? Most would assume that it means his system isnt the be all end all of grappling. It also probably means he isnt the greatest teacher in the world. It may also mean that his student just happen to not be that great or that he doesnt have enough to form a world class competition team. Who knows, i dont train at 10th planet nor have I visited it so it is all speculation.

To be fair though, a few practitioners have used the rubber guard effectively. Guys like Vinny Maghaelaseseses, who placed at ADCC 2009 use the rubber guard in MMA, and is a huge advocate of it. Guys like Aoki and G Sot use it very effectively in MMA, during an era where guys like Jon Fitch say the closed guard is dead (I consider the Rubber guard a form of closed guard). Other concepts, like the lock down, have been in BJJ for ages and I learnt it in gi BJJ long before I even knew what 10th Planet was. This doesnt take anything away from 10th Planet, but if anything validates its use.

 

[Shemhazai]

It's because 10th Planet is all marketing hype predicated on a false dichotomy of 'traditional' BJJ vs. Eddie Bravo's 'revolutionary' system. Every single significant (i.e. proven to be effective at the highest level of competition) innovation in BJJ in the last decade has come from 'traditional' BJJ teams like Alliance, Atos, Nova Uni

 

[Supereem]

It's because 10th Planet is all marketing hype predicated on a false dichotomy of 'traditional' BJJ vs. Eddie Bravo's 'revolutionary' system. Every single significant (i.e. proven to be effective at the highest level of competition) innovation in BJJ in the last decade has come from 'traditional' BJJ teams like Alliance, Atos, Nova Uni

 

[KJGould]

10th Planet isn't a system, but an optional supplement for those who already have a firm grounding in the fundamentals. The guys mentioned that have success with it do so because they were already BJJ black belts or the equivalent of.

Also their use of 10th Planet isn't the be all and end all, just another route to take when in transition to get to tried and tested positions and submissions.

 

[Shemhazai]

I think the main problem with the 10th Planet discourse is the use of the word 'system'. My BJJ academy isn't based on a system; rather, each practitioner has his/her own system, gleaned from the wealth of techniques that he/she is exposed to in or outside of the academy. Sure, we're just as much subject to trends and fads as other schools, and a lot of people are doing the same things, but our options as far as whom to look to - either our many different higher belts, or famous international competitors - are always open, and we're not bound by any style. To narrow these options down by telling your students, "in 10th Planet we mainly play rubber guard, prison guard, lockdown half and butterfly guard", even if only implying it by letting them know that these are the trademarks of the 'system', is bound to stunt the students' technical progression IMO, as well as create a much more homogenous and predictable training environment.

 

[buhjayjay]

I haven't read or been taught by bravo but if I remember correctly - I think - in an interview he talked about how he developed the rubber guard system specifically for mma. Im sure he has students who purely train bjj, but should one therefore look at the use of rubber guard and other relevant techniques in mma and how successful they are? It is not uncommon to see UFC fighters using rubber guard (and everytime rogan has to change his trousers). It seems like considering Bravo is just one instructor, quite a few of 'his' tecniques (I say 'his' because the fighters themselves credit learning from him - or his YouTube videos!) are used in MMA. Is that - and would Bravo consider that - more important than success in pure grappling tournaments?

 

[Shemhazai]

I haven't read or been taught by bravo but if I remember correctly - I think - in an interview he talked about how he developed the rubber guard system specifically for mma. Im sure he has students who purely train bjj, but should one therefore look at the use of rubber guard and other relevant techniques in mma and how successful they are? It is not uncommon to see UFC fighters using rubber guard (and everytime rogan has to change his trousers). It seems like considering Bravo is just one instructor, quite a few of 'his' tecniques (I say 'his' because the fighters themselves credit learning from him - or his YouTube videos!) are used in MMA. Is that - and would Bravo consider that - more important than success in pure grappling tournaments?

There have been A LOT of attempts at rubber guard in MMA, and only a couple of guys have pulled off any successful offense from it at the higher levels. Hardly ever against a similarly skilled grappler. I've seen much more successful deep half guard in MMA than rubber guard.

 

[delt16]

Eddie only has like 6 black belts. All of them have been promoted within the last year or so.

Denny Prokopos is in the next ADCC. He is Eddies first Blackbelt.

Or it might be shirt not belt. Not really sure about that.

 

[Auspex]

Also, look at the comparisons you made.

Werdum, Drysdale, Garcia, Ribeiro, Maia, etc

These are folks that have been around for a decade...

These aren't brand new black belts like any of Eddies guys would be.

I'm not saying that it validates Eddie's "system", but his school really isn't that old. Certainly not old enough to spit out a bunch of world champs.

 

[SimonAdd]

There have been A LOT of attempts at rubber guard in MMA, and only a couple of guys have pulled off any successful offense from it at the higher levels. Hardly ever against a similarly skilled grappler. I've seen much more successful deep half guard in MMA than rubber guard.

Not really interested in getting into the wider 10th Planet debate, but can you provide me with an example of when deep half has been successfully used in MMA against a similarly skilled grappler? The only examples I can think of are when the guy using it had a distinct advantage in submission grappling (eg Nog vs Brilz).

 

[sanchezero]

Eddie only has like 6 black belts. All of them have been promoted within the last year or so.

Denny Prokopos is in the next ADCC. He is Eddies first Blackbelt.

Or it might be shirt not belt. Not really sure about that.

tangentially related - how long had rafa and gui been black belts when they started killin' everyone?

 

[Calibur]

tangentially related - how long had rafa and gui been black belts when they started killin' everyone?

They were killing folks at brown!

I dont think Ryan Hall has been training as long as Denny? How long had Hall been in the game when he beat the decade long black belt gordo in ADCC. How about when he was giing Leo Veira a run for his money.

What about the flavor of the weak Ari Farias? IMO 10th planet is only good at making up names and excuses.

HOnestly I like the idea of a bunch of grappling styles and I want 10th planet guys to do well using what they are known for, but until they actually start winning, they're just a nogi school run by a pot addict.

 

[Steelviper]

10th Planet isn't a system, but an optional supplement for those who already have a firm grounding in the fundamentals. The guys mentioned that have success with it do so because they were already BJJ black belts or the equivalent of.

Also their use of 10th Planet isn't the be all and end all, just another route to take when in transition to get to tried and tested positions and submissions.

On the contrary, doesn't 10th Planet (as a system) tend to do better at the lower levels (beginner no gi grappling)? The flow chart based approach is really quite appealing to me, intellectually. I think most traditional BJJ schools tend to hold that (especially at higher levels) BJJ is too complex to capture in an easy to follow flowchart poster like those found in some of Bravo's 10th P books.

I like 10th Planet's nomenclature (not that I use it, just the attempt to give names to things as a mnemonic), and their flowcharts (esp. for use at lower levels). That said, I've never trained it, and rarely even competed against it. Not all 10th Planet practitioners use rubberguard/lockdown/twister/etc, though those techs are more likely to be concentrated on at 10th P schools that elsewhere (obviously).

 

[Wrestleben]

On the contrary, doesn't 10th Planet (as a system) tend to do better at the lower levels (beginner no gi grappling)? The flow chart based approach is really quite appealing to me, intellectually. I think most traditional BJJ schools tend to hold that (especially at higher levels) BJJ is too complex to capture in an easy to follow flowchart poster like those found in some of Bravo's 10th P books./QUOTE]

From my experience in the midwest, 10th planet guys do very poorly at the beginner levels. Once their rubber guard got passed they were fish out of water. Once they can't "whip up" while in lockdown, they had nothing. Then they would all go outside and smoke cigarettes and complain about the refs and rules.

 

[MyBodyHurts]

In fairness, if you view 10th planet as a system it hasn't had much time to develop brown and black belts to the point you'd have a large enough number of them that some would compete at the highest levels. Even if they have four or five black belts now, obviously it can't be placed on those people to be some of the best black belts in the world. So, I suppose if I was a 10th planet supporter I'd at least argue more time is needed for them to really show their stuff.

With that being said, every friend of mine or people I've trained with that are brown or higher view rubber guard as a complete joke. Ryan Hall (in his Triangle DVD), without saying "rubber gaurd", says several times not to put your leg in certain positions ever, which is more or less the rubber guard position.

Then again, Ari Bolden is part of it so it must be credible. Oh...no...he...didn't!

 

[lechien]

EB preaches that one student that wants to compete in NOGI should train in NOGI from day one:

Such student should have an advantage over another student that train GI in a NOGI competition.

 

[Supereem]

In fairness, if you view 10th planet as a system it hasn't had much time to develop brown and black belts to the point you'd have a large enough number of them that some would compete at the highest levels. Even if they have four or five black belts now, obviously it can't be placed on those people to be some of the best black belts in the world. So, I suppose if I was a 10th planet supporter I'd at least argue more time is needed for them to really show their stuff.

With that being said, every friend of mine or people I've trained with that are brown or higher view rubber guard as a complete joke. Ryan Hall (in his Triangle DVD), without saying "rubber gaurd", says several times not to put your leg in certain positions ever, which is more or less the rubber guard position.

Then again, Ari Bolden is part of it so it must be credible. Oh...no...he...didn't!

Yet guys like Aoki, Gsot and Vinny Magalhaes use it very succesfully in MMA. Talk shit on 10th Planet all you want, but these guys are some of the few who can actually submit people off their back in modern MMA, which I think proves the rubber guard position has its uses.

 

[Commissar]

If I'm talking bollocks, then feel free to disregard this thread. I'm making no attempt to troll, just want to clarify something.

10th Planet seems to be made out as if its THE no-gi grappling system, but why aren't its practitioners tearing up major nogi tournaments? I'm just looking through the ADCC winners from past competitions and I just keep seeing guys like Werdum, Drysdale, Garcia, Ribeiro, Maia, etc; all guys I thought came from traditional BJJ backgrounds.

Can anyone shed some light on this?

It's really just marketing. Basing an entire game around the rubber guard is, according to 10th Planet's lack of international competition success, an ineffective idea. But, just like any other style, there are aspects of Eddie Bravo's game that are very useful.

I've seen quite a few people use the rubber guard as part of their aggressive guard game. It doesn't work for me, but it works for them.

 

[selfcritical]

Not really interested in getting into the wider 10th Planet debate, but can you provide me with an example of when deep half has been successfully used in MMA against a similarly skilled grappler? The only examples I can think of are when the guy using it had a distinct advantage in submission grappling (eg Nog vs Brilz).

GSP vs Jon Fitch. Fitch is a legit black belt under one of the most well regarded BJJ instructors in the country, and is decent in competition.