Putin makes Holocaust denial a criminal offence punishable by up to five years in jail.

Should we have laws like this in America?


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What do black people have to do with this?
Just thought I would try to join you in educating the plebs on the unreliability of official narratives when ethnic or racial controversy is involved. That's one example among hundreds that are out there. It's the same biased history being repeated over and over again that makes us think one thing is true. But, it turns out, only 6 white people were murdered by black people last year. Astonishing how the media has twisted that.
 
Just thought I would try to join you in educating the plebs on the unreliability of official narratives when ethnic or racial controversy is involved. That's one example among hundreds that are out there. It's the same biased history being repeated over and over again that makes us think one thing is true. But, it turns out, only 6 white people were murdered by black people last year. Astonishing how the media has twisted that.

Why don't you make a thread if you're so concerned?
 
What is the point of such a thing, so far after WWII? Other than pleasing some special interest group wanting it in for political reasons, it seems pretty odd.

Because they have something to hide. Obviously the Nazis murdered a lot of Jews and tried to wipe people out but we will never know what happened until people stop doing witch hunts of those who arrive at differing conclusions. 6 million is a sacred number. No other historical event. Even ones far bloodier get this type of treatment.
 

Did you really need to be told that there is no legit easily obtained single document that exposes the holocaust as a myth?

Hmmmm indeed.
 
Huh, I actually am a bit surprised. Not that Putin would ban a type of speech, that's believable, but banning Holocaust denial? He's a populist authoritarian and I've had the impression antisemitism is not that uncommon in Russia and Eastern Europe compared to Western Europe(Muslims excluded).

It's not very surprising once you look into the support that underpins Putin's popularity. I've said on many occasions that he's a porous and incompetent head of government, but he's an excellent head of state.

Once the USSR fell, US propaganda became the dominant global historical perspective on the Cold War period. Like any fallen empire or defeated country, Russia was saddled with disrepute disproportionate to its actual crimes, while those of the US, UK, and France were marginalized.


However, old USSR loyalists are still very prevalent in Putin's Russia and make up a considerable portion of the nationalist crowd that most supports Putin. And one of perhaps the greatest exercises of Cold War propaganda was the reframing of WWII as an American-led victory, when it was really considered a Russian-led victory for decades following the end of the war. In reality, it was some great triumph of the Russian people over an objectively evil ideology that did kill millions of Jews, that did scapegoat Jews as well as Marxists, communists, and social democrats, and that did cause Russia to lose more citizens to military death than the entirety of the Axis powers combined. Winning WWII was and is thus, understandably, an area of Russian pride.

Also, to be sure, Russian Jews were both very supportive of and were integral to (see my namesake for one famous revolutionary Jew) the revolution. However, while official antisemitism was permanently retired and treatment of Jews drastically improved under Lenin, later Stalin's paranoia toward Jewish holders of power and frankly towards Trotsky individually led Stalin to institute his own war on Jewish people. Because this was an exercise of Stalin's personal failures, not the animus of the Russian people per se, it's not a particularly favorable topic. For insights:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Soviet_Union



In short, there are a lot of Russian nationalistic reasons to oppose Holocaust denial, and they play into Putin's brand pragmatic pandering. No Russian wants to think that they lost 10 million countrymen fighting a hoax. Hope that helped.


@Limbo Pete

Why not let Holocaust deniers say what they want. They will just confirm what idiots they are, yes? I think that's the point here.

Silencing any political speech seems to cause more problems than it would ever solve, no?

Well, that logic is fine for us, and it's the logic that I like.

However, that "marketplace of ideas" type of approach is an argument for liberalism that is ingrained in US thought. However, Putin has been fairly frank in his commitment to the fact that liberalism is not the only way forward. That could be some left over Soviet sentiment, but more likely it's just that he's drunk on power.
 
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Safe to say we draw that line in the sand.
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And where is that line?
 
How cute.

Keep it moving boot licker.

Whose boots is he licking?

Anyways, I would usually support on principle your "history is never good vs. evil as it is presented" stance if you weren't supporting it with unverified propaganda from the other side and, at the very least, lending credence to the most insidious of Holocaust denialists.
 
For the record, I don't like this Holocaust denial categorical censoring for the same reason I don't like this Russian law. Let the denialists speak their minds and be bent over my reasonable thought.
 
Whose boots is he licking?

Anyways, I would usually support on principle your "history is never good vs. evil as it is presented" stance if you weren't supporting it with unverified propaganda from the other side and, at the very least, lending credence to the most insidious of Holocaust denialists.

Recorded data is not propaganda. However what is propaganda is attempting to discredit those numbers under the basis of fueling your narrative. The arguments against the numbers I've posted are that they're inaccurate because they only account for documented deaths. I am not interested in endless conjecture about speculative lives lost because there it is an argument that is grounded in emotion rather than fact.
 
Recorded data is not propaganda. However what is propaganda is attempting to discredit those numbers under the basis of fueling your narrative. The arguments against the numbers I've posted are that they're inaccurate because they only account for documented deaths. I am not interested in endless conjecture about speculative lives lost because there it is an argument that is grounded in emotion rather than fact.

You've been citing to a Wikipedia page that has already been fleshed out to deny your claims.

I get that the absence of definitive proof grants justifiable suspicion, but it doesn't make for a persuasive argument to the contrary.

I think it's fairly safe to say that at least 3 million German and Polish Jews died in the Holocaust, not counting another million of Russian Jewish fighters. I haven't seen persuasive argument that would suggest anything less than 4 million as an estimate floor.
 
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