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Push/Pull ratio

Discussion in 'Strength & Conditioning Discussion' started by LZD, Oct 30, 2010.

  1. LZD

    LZD Purple Belt

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    What do you find is a good ratio of push and pull in your routine, based on your experience?

    It seems to me that with 5/3/1 triumvirate or BBB may have too much upper body push compared to pull.

    You have the main lifts, Bench and OHP, plus 5x10 of their assistance. Then you have 5x10 BORs and 5x10 Chins/Pull-ups.

    Any thoughts on this matter?

    DL is obviously the biggest pulling movement, but would you recommend doing 5x10 of another pulling movement on DL day, like Kroc-Rows or some variant, as opposed to lower back exercises like Goodmornings or GHR etc.


    I've used the search function on this topic, and google, of course, but naturally, I can't find your thoughts.....
     
  2. CombatCyborg

    CombatCyborg Black Belt

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    I've found that I consistently pull my anterior deltoid if I focus too much on heavy presses. So I generally do a much higher ratio of heavy pulling movements than I do presses.

    Right now I'm doing 5/3/1 bench press, once a week obviously, and not doing any SOHP because that's a much stronger lift for me relative to bench press.

    Pulling movements I do are everything you mentioned, and I also like the chest-supported rowing device (though barbell rows kind of make them redundant), as well as face pulls using the cable.
     
  3. rckvl

    rckvl Blue Belt

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    Don't forget that with the bench press the scapula are in a retracted position(that is if you are benching properly) so a row is not the opposing movement for it. To balance the bench press you want to do something with scapular protraction.

    I think Eric Cressey had a great article on how to balance your lifting in a T-nation article if you feel like looking.
     
  4. FiveFeezy

    FiveFeezy Orange Belt

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    I'm currently running the 5/3/1. Since I've had shoulder issues in the past I do a couple of extra exercises just for shoulder health. On SOHP day I work chinups and then do a couple of sets of external dumbbell rotations (I think that is what they are called). On bench press day I do BOR's and then do a set of 20 rear dumbbell flies. My shoulders feel pretty solid with this routine.
     
  5. Tosa

    Tosa Red Belt

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    This was discussed in some detail in Miaou's log.

    Also, Wendler recommends doing sets of chins between pressing exercises as a matter of course, so even if pulling work isn't programmed in for the 5/3/1 sets it doesn't mean you can't get some in. Additionally, Wendler has also mentioned doing something like 50 chins/pull-ups as part of his warm-up.
     
  6. Cratos

    Cratos Banned Banned

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    I press 2x/week and bench 1x/week.

    I do chin ups every day in the gym and do heavy DB BORs on bench day.

    Shoulders feel fine.
     
  7. FiveFeezy

    FiveFeezy Orange Belt

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    I've never understood why Wendler recommends doing chins between pressing sets. Isn't that more of a conditioning/bodybuilding thing and not condicive to strength training?

    Furthermore, 50 chinups seems a bit taxing for a warmup. I wouldn't be able to work the same weight with a warmup like that.
     
  8. Tosa

    Tosa Red Belt

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    If the muscles being worked are mostly different it isn't an issue. It's a way to save time, and in this case, keep things balanced. It would only be an issue if your work capacity was low, or perhaps if you were going for a PR.

    Depends. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Wendler has a longer warm-up, so those chins could be spread across a good number of sets. Also, I suspect his work capacity is pretty good, from hill sprints and prowler work.

    Plus it depends on how good someone is at chins...YouTube - Weighted Chins - 100x5...so I'd imagine that 5x10 at bodyweight wouldn't be especially taxing. Here's KK doing 55 in one go: YouTube - 55 pullups. And KK again, this time with bands (77lbs tension at the bottom, 133lbs tension at the top): YouTube - Pullups with bands.
     
  9. Aleks Sytsevich

    Aleks Sytsevich Super Saiyan

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    1:2 push to pull is what I normally aim for in the gym as well as at home on off days. It's something I got from Wendler and it has helped with my posture a bit.

    Re: Wendler's copious quantities of pull ups and chins; remember that he is pressing extremely heavy, as well as heavy weighted dips. It would only make sense for him to do many pulls and chins in an effort to match or exceed tonnage for his pressing. Also, he is very well conditioned for a pl, and his trainings are not necessary to imitate for a novice trainee.

    As Fivefeezy said, it would be extremely taxing for some. Wendler has achieved a level of strength, conditioning and a cns that allows him to do what he does.
     
  10. Oblivian

    Oblivian Aging Platinum Member

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    I'm doing a shitload more pushing than pulling right now. Right now, I'm focusing soley on improving Bench, Push Press, Deadlifts, and Squats. I was incorporating in Pullups/Chins and BOR's originally, but I found that it was actually hindering me spending energy on lifts that I'm not focusing on. When my goals change, I'll definitely be incorporating Pullups/Chins and BORs again, but I don't see the point in having them in my routine right now. Everything is progressing fine without them.
     
  11. rckvl

    rckvl Blue Belt

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  12. Aleks Sytsevich

    Aleks Sytsevich Super Saiyan

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    Thanks for the article. I never really thought in terms of scapula protraction/retractions. I always thought in terms of strengthening opposing groups (pecs pulling shoulders forward, lats and traps pulling shoulders back in Laymen's terms).

    Thanks again.
     

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