Punch power and force generation across known big power punchers- Carwin, Wilder, Johnson, Hunt etc

[TheMaster]

With talk of Wilders power and that he has KO'd all 40 of his opponents (including Fury for a good 3 seconds although impressive he woke up to beat the count), it is time to have an in depth discussion of various mechanics of punching power and force generation. It is not so simple as force = mass x acceleration at all.
Also the KO is accuracy and the punch you dont see, Wilder for example hits behind the ear a lot.

Any fighter, any sport, any weight class considered and including also TMA power generation for an ananlysis.

I'll start with my favourite from the old times, Jack Dempsey. If any if you read his book 'championship fighting' it is gold for developing power using
- shoulder whirl
- the power line and vertical fist straight punch.
Fits well with WIng Chun punch power generation which I can discuss later, and close range power for which the force generation at close range is known.

- he also uses the jerk step, or falling step, trigger step.
Personally I find this awkward but at a high level is possible to use this without an actual step but a fall of body weight.



Wilders punch power generation is phenomenal at only 215 even if some think it is windmill (which it is not), also Carwin is another, Anthony Johnson, Tyson, Lawler and others.

Obviously genetics, fast twitch fibres and tendon strength plays a part but the purpose of this thread is to break down mechanics of how different known power punchers from different styles have different ways they generate force to see commonalities and enable some improvement in punch power.

 

[ironkhan57]

One thing I know is. If wilder fought anybody else other than fury, it would've been considered a knock out.

Sorry I'm not good at explaining the whole punching power in depth nor do I follow boxing as much as mma. I did see a few of his fights. Judging by his frame and height, he probably gets the power from throwing his left shoulder back (because I do know his most powerful punch and the punch that knocked out most of his opponents.) The fact that he has a straight back when he does it also helps (which that's what a lot of sherdoggers have told me to do, especially when I had friendly fight with my brothers co worker 2 months ago.) And the fact that he is really strong and more explosive than a lot of the people in that division to my knowledge.

Really my right hand is more powerful because of all the explosive and endurance training I do now.

That was my 2 cents, i don't know that much about boxing, I watched a lot of Mike Tyson though. And watched some of shawn porter and Adrien browner recently when I wanted to shadowbox and mimicking there combos a bit.

 

[rmongler]

Guys who are braced hit stiff; guys who are lax hit like pillows.

 

[Boxing_paloney]

I like how his right foot comes off the ground, then he lands on his big toe. Almost like he's putting his ankle into it. You can really see it in the highlighted clip, sorry it happens so fast

 

[YourOnlineHero]

I like how his right foot comes off the ground, then he lands on his big toe. Almost like he's putting his ankle into it. You can really see it in the highlighted clip, sorry it happens so fast

I've been saying it for years but people never know what I'm talking about.

If you don't feel your rear calf/ankle burning then you aren't hitting hard.

Calf strength and ankle tendon rigidity plays a huge part in transfering power into the target.

Power generated =/= power transferred

 

[1 2 3]

If you look at highlights of Earnie Shavers and Julian "The Hawk" Jackson, they both seem to emphasize turning their torsos rapidly by twisting with both legs in opposite directions. Their torsos spin with the punching arm trailing out from its rotation. They make contact with their arms in a neutral position, not fully extended. Their arm finally fully snaps into position as the same--side hip powers the completion of the rotation of the torso.

 

[Boxing_paloney]

I've been saying it for years but people never know what I'm talking about.

If you don't feel your rear calf/ankle burning then you aren't hitting hard.

Calf strength and ankle tendon rigidity plays a huge part in transfering power into the target.

Power generated =/= power transferred

Yeah. You see a lot of guys move their right foot forward and land on the bottom of their toes but Wilder lands ballerina-style on the end of them regularly. If Fury wanted to be nasty he could probably stomp that toe to calm the right hand down.

 

[eternaldarkness]

One thing I know is. If wilder fought anybody else other than fury, it would've been considered a knock out.

Sorry I'm not good at explaining the whole punching power in depth nor do I follow boxing as much as mma. I did see a few of his fights. Judging by his frame and height, he probably gets the power from throwing his left shoulder back (because I do know his most powerful punch and the punch that knocked out most of his opponents.) The fact that he has a straight back when he does it also helps (which that's what a lot of sherdoggers have told me to do, especially when I had friendly fight with my brothers co worker 2 months ago.) And the fact that he is really strong and more explosive than a lot of the people in that division to my knowledge.

Really my right hand is more powerful because of all the explosive and endurance training I do now.

That was my 2 cents, i don't know that much about boxing, I watched a lot of Mike Tyson though. And watched some of shawn porter and Adrien browner recently when I wanted to shadowbox and mimicking there combos a bit.

your right hand is stronger because you are more coordinated and better at transferring your weight into it. boxers commonly have a stronger lead arm due to using it a lot more, but will still hit harder with the real hand because it's still their dominant hand.

 

[eternaldarkness]

Yeah. You see a lot of guys move their right foot forward and land on the bottom of their toes but Wilder lands ballerina-style on the end of them regularly. If Fury wanted to be nasty he could probably stomp that toe to calm the right hand down.

it doesn't matter how the foot lands after moving forward, it has already transferred the weight.

 

[eternaldarkness]

If you look at highlights of Earnie Shavers and Julian "The Hawk" Jackson, they both seem to emphasize turning their torsos rapidly by twisting with both legs in opposite directions. Their torsos spin with the punching arm trailing out from its rotation. They make contact with their arms in a neutral position, not fully extended. Their arm finally fully snaps into position as the same--side hip powers the completion of the rotation of the torso.

the rotation of the torso seems to be a big factor. if you have seen foreman hit a bag he really winds up his torso when he loads up on punches.

 

[eternaldarkness]

With talk of Wilders power and that he has KO'd all 40 of his opponents (including Fury for a good 3 seconds although impressive he woke up to beat the count), it is time to have an in depth discussion of various mechanics of punching power and force generation. It is not so simple as force = mass x acceleration at all.
Also the KO is accuracy and the punch you dont see, Wilder for example hits behind the ear a lot.

Any fighter, any sport, any weight class considered and including also TMA power generation for an ananlysis.

I'll start with my favourite from the old times, Jack Dempsey. If any if you read his book 'championship fighting' it is gold for developing power using
- shoulder whirl
- the power line and vertical fist straight punch.
Fits well with WIng Chun punch power generation which I can discuss later, and close range power for which the force generation at close range is known.

- he also uses the jerk step, or falling step, trigger step.
Personally I find this awkward but at a high level is possible to use this without an actual step but a fall of body weight.
View attachment 482281


Wilders punch power generation is phenomenal at only 215 even if some think it is windmill (which it is not), also Carwin is another, Anthony Johnson, Tyson, Lawler and others.

Obviously genetics, fast twitch fibres and tendon strength plays a part but the purpose of this thread is to break down mechanics of how different known power punchers from different styles have different ways they generate force to see commonalities and enable some improvement in punch power.

i think that mcclellan and nigel benn are interesting to watch. both where massive punchers, but benn punched off the ground more (similar to the way i generate force) whereas mcclellan had a smoother punching action and didn't seem to push off the back foot as much. mathew saad muhammed also had a punching style the didn't have an obvious big shift off weight. i believe this kind of puncher is extremely dangerous as their punches are harder to see coming.

 

[ironkhan57]

your right hand is stronger because you are more coordinated and better at transferring your weight into it. boxers commonly have a stronger lead arm due to using it a lot more, but will still hit harder with the real hand because it's still their dominant hand.

Yeah don't some right handed boxers use the southpaw stance so that their right hand is in front, and they can hit a knockout hook? I'm pretty sure I heard that somewhere.

 

[eternaldarkness]

Yeah don't some right handed boxers use the southpaw stance so that their right hand is in front, and they can hit a knockout hook? I'm pretty sure I heard that somewhere.

bruce lee was an advocate of keeping your dominant side forward, and i had a friend that was right handed and fought southpaw. he had a great double right hook and wicked lead upper cut but his left was pretty shit.

 

[RabbitPunch36]

i think that mcclellan and nigel benn are interesting to watch. both where massive punchers, but benn punched off the ground more (similar to the way i generate force) whereas mcclellan had a smoother punching action and didn't seem to push off the back foot as much. mathew saad muhammed also had a punching style the didn't have an obvious big shift off weight. i believe this kind of puncher is extremely dangerous as their punches are harder to see coming.

How would you describe the way McCelellan punched?

 

[eternaldarkness]

How would you describe the way McCelellan punched?

like a wave of pure power. he had such great coordination that he didn't require a big transferal of weight. he's the opposite of a puncher like marciano that used a massive weight shift.

 

[ironkhan57]

bruce lee was an advocate of keeping your dominant side forward, and i had a friend that was right handed and fought southpaw. he had a great double right hook and wicked lead upper cut but his left was pretty shit.

Yeah one guy in a muay thai class 2 years ago, he was left handed and fought orthodox. I don't know if it was because his left hand was more powerful than his right. I never got the chance to spar with him though he was always in and out for a while training at another gym too.

 

[Boxing_paloney]

it doesn't matter how the foot lands after moving forward, it has already transferred the weight.

I would think the further your weight is on the foot the more power/momentum you generate, or am I wrong? It definitely looks like it helps Wilder use his ankle to transfer some weight but let me know if I’m wrong. It makes some sense with pretending you’re putting out a cigarette.

 

[eternaldarkness]

I would think the further your weight is on the foot the more power/momentum you generate, or am I wrong? It definitely looks like it helps Wilder use his ankle to transfer some weight but let me know if I’m wrong. It makes some sense with pretending you’re putting out a cigarette.

yes you are correct in the sense that he is driving off the floor using the calf muscle as well and creating a greater range of motion. once the back foot shifts forward and contacts the ground again it has already transferred all the weight though. how you land is more about balance and recovery.

 

[eternaldarkness]

I would think the further your weight is on the foot the more power/momentum you generate, or am I wrong? It definitely looks like it helps Wilder use his ankle to transfer some weight but let me know if I’m wrong. It makes some sense with pretending you’re putting out a cigarette.

a hard punch starts with all the weight on the same foot (back foot for orthodox right cross) but upon impact there is little or no weight on the back foot. the weight is traveling forward and through the opponent. the correct transferal of weight is the single biggest factor in punching power. the equation for force is mass x acceleration, it is far easier the increase the mass that you are transferring into the target than it is to increase acceleration.

 

[Boxing_paloney]

yes you are correct in the sense that he is driving off the floor using the calf muscle as well and creating a greater range of motion. once the back foot shifts forward and contacts the ground again it has already transferred all the weight though. how you land is more about balance and recovery.

When he lands he’s definitely off balance. You’re right, he’s doing it to land forward an extra few inches, not to get power. Although those extra few inches can be the difference and I could see it giving him more space to build momentum.