Pulling a kneeling opponent backward = dangerous?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by redaxe, Aug 26, 2010.

  1. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    So I was trying to take someone's back from DLR guard in no-gi class tonight and his defense was to fall forward and kneel down, but I already had a strong grip around the waist so I just pulled him backwards to take his back. Then he yelled at me like "DON'T DO THAT! NEVER DO THAT, YOU COULD BLOW OUT MY KNEES!"

    I was pretty surprised, I've never heard of this before as being something dangerous that you should never ever do. Do you guys agree with this? Any of you actually been injured this way?

    On the one hand, I can see how it could hurt your knees or ankles if you're fully kneeling in turtle position with the insteps of your feet on the mat and someone pulled you straight backwards, especially if you're not very flexible.

    But on the other hand, it seems to me that if kneeling to defend that type of back take not only doesn't work, but also puts you at risk of knee injury, then it's a bad defense and you shouldn't do it.

    I guess in the future when I take the back against a standing opponent and they try to turtle to defend, instead of pulling them backward I'll come up and attack the turtle position from the side. Just thought I'd share this though, since I'm probably not the only one here who hadn't encountered this situation yet.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2010
  2. platfox

    platfox Silver Belt

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    People in class grab the back of the collar of a turtled opponent and swing backwards with all their weight. That seems a little dangerous and I don't do it, but I've never objected to it.

    In your case though, the guy used it as a defense. I wouldn't consider that your fault. If it is, then you can never pull anyone backwards in any position in fear they might go to their knees.
     
  3. ijustwannasurf

    ijustwannasurf Brown Belt

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    It can hurt, and I've heard plenty of admonishments against it.
    I've been taught to imagine an X on their back, and break them down along those lines; ie- pull diagonally from right shoulder to left foot.
     
  4. Crazy Legs

    Crazy Legs Orange Belt

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    Why not pull them backwards at an angle? It is easier and gives you more attack options without injuring your opponent.
     
  5. Toastytoy

    Toastytoy Brown Belt

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    the kid has a case of vaginitus
     
  6. Mikey Triangles

    Mikey Triangles Bending Joints the Wrong Way Since 1985

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    tell him to get on his toes so that doesn't happen.

    yes, when someone is kneeling or turtle with dead toes (foot flat on the ground) it can be dangerous to pull them over their feet.... this is why positioning yourself like that is such a ridiculously stupid thing to do, and that's without getting into the number of ways it hurts your mobility and limits your options.

    So for newbs don't pull them over like that (in most cases other angles are more effective anyway), but if the guy knows this enough to tell you not to do it then i don't think he qualifies as a newb. next time politely inform himm that he can save himself from injury and defend attacks like that easier if he uses live toes by staying on the balls of his feet.
     
  7. MaiLeeGoodFck**

    MaiLeeGoodFck** White Belt

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    just do this next time so you dont hurt the guy

     
  8. Pahlavan**

    Pahlavan** White Belt

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    Some people are not as flexible. My brother cant sit on his heels and Ive done something like you explained and he was in pain.
     
  9. 879lexus

    879lexus Blue Belt

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    My instructor once a week points out bad moves that can hurt your partner. This is one of them. If the guy is heavier, you can snap his ankle.
     
  10. YeahBee

    YeahBee Samdog Original Nine

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    yeah frowned upon
     
  11. Sloth

    Sloth Brown Belt

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    You can hurt them by pulling straight back, so it's a good idea to pull them at an angle. If someone is taking my back and they are new I'll shoot myself sideways as they pull me back to avoid getting hurt.
     
  12. barnowl

    barnowl Green Belt

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    It is things like this were stupidity on the part of the defender causes the attacker to have to not use a valid and effective counter that leads to the weakening of styles and is driving distance between sport and non-sport BJJ.

    If it is a technique, like a heel hook, that even under ideal controlled conditions can still cause sever injury, I can see and understand limiting it's application. But when this is more like telling a boxer never hit somebody in the jaw if they have their mount open becuase it is can knock their teeth out.

    In fight or even a sparring session, job one is to protect yourself, so doing things that actively increase your risk of injury to obvious, legitimately and general safe attacks is just really stupid and the one doing said stupid things should be the one getting this pointed out to them.
     
  13. segfault

    segfault Orange Belt

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    Pulling straight back is asking for joint injury
     
  14. kingwilly

    kingwilly Yellow Belt

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    The guy is right. It is dangerous to pull an opponent straight back because of the danger to his knees and it is much more efficient to pull him back at an angle, anyway. He should, however, expect people to do that and be prepared. You'd think by the time someone got to blue belt they would know not to pull people straight back but I can't tell you how many of them have tried that on me.

    One thing Roy Harris recommends (even though I personally don't like using it) is for the bottom guy to cross his ankles. That way, if he does get pulled straight back, his knees are protected. Personally, if someone strong starts pulling me straight back, I just angle for them.
     
  15. Balto

    Balto Silver Belt

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    What are you talking about with the difference between sport BJJ and non-sport BJJ? Pulling the opponent straight back is completely legal in tournaments.

    If a guy in a tournament thinks pulling you straight back will work, he'll just pull you straight back. You have to be prepared to counter that or else it's on you. What you are proposing is already how it is in sport BJJ.

    People always criticize sport BJJ for being wimpy, but the truth is that tournament matches are much more serious and intense than the type of training that you usually find in non-sport BJJ schools. It's ridiculous that people think otherwise.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2010
  16. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    Thanks, I was thinking that but I didn't want to argue about it, partly because the guy is a purple belt and I'm a blue. And I just wanted to keep rolling. So I just said sorry.

    But maybe the next time I try my DLR back take and someone falls forward and turtles with dead toes to defend I will tell him that he can hurt himself doing that. It's really not a good defense either, it doesn't stop me from taking the back. It seems more effective for my opponent to try to spin as I'm pulling him down and end up in my guard again.
     
  17. akdms

    akdms Blue Belt

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    I guess it could hurt his knees, if his leg folded out (so his heel went to the outside of his hip). I would hope that a purple belt would react properly and not put himself in a position to get rolled like that though.

    More likely is that it would hurt his ankles, but again I would expect that a purple belt would not put himself in a position to get injured.

    I don't see anything wrong with what you did.
     
  18. akdms

    akdms Blue Belt

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    Just a thought... Maybe he already has bad knees and was worried about getting reinjured?
     
  19. Belatucadros

    Belatucadros Brown Belt

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    I'd say it's more on the ankles than anything. Maybe a torn quad if he stayed with his shins on the floor as you went back. Knees would be difficult I think.
     
  20. barnowl

    barnowl Green Belt

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    I poorly worded that let me try it again.

    30-40 years ago Karate tournaments were bloody knock down affairs, now people rag on it as being slappy tappy garbage.If you start regulating and restricting techniques based on the defenders stupidity, then you really would end up with a wimpy "sport BJJ" that was not actually effective vs. the current state were there really is not really a difference between sport BJJ and BJJ for self-defense.
     

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