Pull/retreat advice

[Towel88]

I was curious about something my coach said to me while i was sparring that he didn't elaborate enough on....

I got caught by a taller guy with a right hook(were both southpaws, so closed stance), it came over the top of my gaurd as i pulled back/retreated, my coach told me it was because i lean back when i pull.

I was curious of the proper way to pull back\retreat to counter for kickboxing. (I know there are probably lots of different ways but hoping someone recognizes what my mistake was and can elaborate.)

Also does it the technique differ depending if I'm the shorter or taller fighter in the exchange. My assumption was that if I was the shorter guy i should get low when I pull and if im the taller fighter its ok to lean back.

Thanks

 

[ARIZE]

My assumption was that if I was the shorter guy i should get low when I pull

Don't do that. If he finish his combos with a roundhouse, you will get a nasty head kick.

and if im the taller fighter its ok to lean back.

Don't do that. If he finish his combos with a roundhouse, you will get a nasty body/low kick.

Seriously... When you lean back, you don't have a good guard, or good balance. You will be in trouble if he follow through before you're able to counter. Specially if you lean back inside the pocket, it's very easy to get caught.
The lean back can be used effectively in some situations, but it's a dangerous toy to play with... I wouldn't recommend it in KB to set up a counter... I would prefer a block then a counter.

But others may have better/different advice for countering inside the pocket, that's not really my style.

 

[j123]

I usually pull out before nutting inside her

 

[eternaldarkness]

I was curious about something my coach said to me while i was sparring that he didn't elaborate enough on....

I got caught by a taller guy with a right hook(were both southpaws, so closed stance), it came over the top of my gaurd as i pulled back/retreated, my coach told me it was because i lean back when i pull.

I was curious of the proper way to pull back\retreat to counter for kickboxing. (I know there are probably lots of different ways but hoping someone recognizes what my mistake was and can elaborate.)

Also does it the technique differ depending if I'm the shorter or taller fighter in the exchange. My assumption was that if I was the shorter guy i should get low when I pull and if im the taller fighter its ok to lean back.

Thanks

only ever use it against a high kick, and only if you have their timing dialled in. in boxing it is mortal sin (despite the fact that ali used it a lot) it is the single easiest way to get knocked out. especially against taller fighters. like @ARIZE said a guard is a far safer option. if it was pure boxing i would say roll under the right, but that can also be a dangerous option against a fighter with decent knees.

 

[eternaldarkness]

Don't do that. If he finish his combos with a roundhouse, you will get a nasty head kick.



Don't do that. If he finish his combos with a roundhouse, you will get a nasty body/low kick.

Seriously... When you lean back, you don't have a good guard, or good balance. You will be in trouble if he follow through before you're able to counter. Specially if you lean back inside the pocket, it's very easy to get caught.
The lean back can be used effectively in some situations, but it's a dangerous toy to play with... I wouldn't recommend it in KB to set up a counter... I would prefer a block then a counter.

But others may have better/different advice for countering inside the pocket, that's not really my style.

this is fatal in boxing. it is my number one pet hate defensively in boxing. that and the pivot left hook (chuck vs quinton) if it is over used or not used correctly. it is only ever a counter punch against the right hand, and then only if your spiffy.

 

[eternaldarkness]

in boxing you don't even step straight back, leaning back is infinitely worse. the punch can drop you just because your balance is off. correct posture is one of the most important factors in being able to take a punch.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

in boxing you don't even step straight back, leaning back is infinitely worse. the punch can drop you just because your balance is off. correct posture is one of the most important factors in being able to take a punch.

Not true.

Boxers can and do step/lean back all the time. Taking a back step is important, so long as you don't step backwards multiple times as to back yourself onto the ropes. It's fine to take a back step, and in the case of leaning back this is also a valid defence especially when you want to land a pull counter. You just need to ensure you have taken a half step backwards first so that you are not off balance when you lean backwards.

This is bad and will lead to this.



But this is completely fine and is encouraged by boxing coaches:

 

[eternaldarkness]

Not true.

Boxers can and do step/lean back all the time. Taking a back step is important, so long as you don't step backwards multiple times as to back yourself onto the ropes. It's fine to take a back step, and in the case of leaning back this is also a valid defence especially when you want to land a pull counter. You just need to ensure you have taken a half step backwards first so that you are not off balance when you lean backwards.

This is bad and will lead to this.



But this is completely fine and is encouraged by boxing coaches:

not by any decent old school coach, they hated fighters pulling back from punches, used to can ali for it. fast guys can get away with it. but it is a bad idea most of the time. just wondering did you start in boxing or kickboxing? i will have to disagree on this one. i think its a shit idea unless you are ali. and you never step straight back in boxing, you circle out. this is boxing basics. i though you were a striking coach? notice how ali stopped pulling back from punches and relied more on a guard as he got older and the reflexes slowed. seen bisbing vs hendo, that is what stepping straight back from the pocket will get you in boxing. his coach was screaming at him to stop doing it just before he got knocked out. are you actually saying an inexperienced fighter should be trying that shit? if you are you have lost all credibility in my eyes.

 

[eternaldarkness]

Not true.

Boxers can and do step/lean back all the time. Taking a back step is important, so long as you don't step backwards multiple times as to back yourself onto the ropes. It's fine to take a back step, and in the case of leaning back this is also a valid defence especially when you want to land a pull counter. You just need to ensure you have taken a half step backwards first so that you are not off balance when you lean backwards.

This is bad and will lead to this.



But this is completely fine and is encouraged by boxing coaches:

seriously though, have you ever seen a boxing coach teach pull back counters. i never have, i though it was a pure thai technique against high kicks.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

not by any decent old school coach, they hated fighters pulling back from punches, used to can ali for it. fast guys can get away with it. but it is a bad idea most of the time. just wondering did you start in boxing or kickboxing? i will have to disagree on this one. i think its a shit idea unless you are ali. and you never step straight back in boxing, you circle out. this is boxing basics. i though you were a striking coach? notice how ali stopped pulling back from punches and relied more on a guard as he got older and the reflexes slowed. seen bisbing vs hendo, that is what stepping straight back from the pocket will get you in boxing. his coach was screaming at him to stop doing it just before he got knocked out. are you actually saying an inexperienced fighter should be trying that shit? if you are you have lost all credibility in my eyes.

Never claimed to be a striking coach. Also, never said that he SHOULD or SHOULDN'T do anything, only that your statement isn't really true. It's called a pull counter for a reason.

Don't get so up tight next time.

 

[Sano]

not by any decent old school coach, they hated fighters pulling back from punches, used to can ali for it. fast guys can get away with it. but it is a bad idea most of the time. just wondering did you start in boxing or kickboxing? i will have to disagree on this one. i think its a shit idea unless you are ali. and you never step straight back in boxing, you circle out. this is boxing basics. i though you were a striking coach? notice how ali stopped pulling back from punches and relied more on a guard as he got older and the reflexes slowed. seen bisbing vs hendo, that is what stepping straight back from the pocket will get you in boxing. his coach was screaming at him to stop doing it just before he got knocked out. are you actually saying an inexperienced fighter should be trying that shit? if you are you have lost all credibility in my eyes.

Pull counters are not uncommon in boxing, though they require a few things in order to work. Sense of range, timing and speed. If you're slower than your opponent it's hard to pull off unless you really set it up well. Also nothing wrong with taking a step straight back if it's to set up a counter.

Here's a few gifs of guys using pull counters (I know you dislike the Ali example, and I agree with you that Ali did things and took chances that other guys shouldn't do and couldn't get away with):

Canelo and Mayweather uses them a lot in boxing. Conor, Gastelum and Wonderboy (sorta) in MMA and I'm sure there's many others. Even our regular @YoungCashMoney has a beautiful pull counter. He's probably the one you should ask @Towel88, maybe he can help us out :

Btw, I definitely don't think you should lean back needlessly TS, especially not without a good base under you. Leaning back too much straight up as a tall guy will get you caught over the top most of the time.

When it comes to the pull counter, it is a dangerous move. I like to set it up with a deliberate forward lean or shift towards my front foot. Make my head appear close than it is and be far enough away so that if they bite on it, when I pull back I am not really leaning or backbending, I have just shifted my weight to my rear hip pulled my head back a little beyond neutral stance. That way you are not comprimising your balance and you can fire back quickly. Then again, I tried doing it against a guy much faster than me without having the proper range and I kept getting caught. It's a move you should use sparringly, and at the right time, if at all. I like to use the pullback and then my own jab as a counter because I find it's faster and easier to land, especially if they overextend.

The reason why Mayweather is so good at it (besides being lightning fast and having super human reflexes) is that he makes people guess. Sometimes he just pulls without countering, sometimes he uses the lead right when shifting forward, sometimes he jabs instead.

Btw, mixing it up with slipping to the inside and coming over the top with the right, and using the outside slip and then right hand counter you keep the person guessing, if you're countering the jab with it. Always have to be thoughtful when using any counter though, that's why having a superior position helps so much because it limits what the other guy can throw at you.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

not by any decent old school coach, they hated fighters pulling back from punches, used to can ali for it. fast guys can get away with it. but it is a bad idea most of the time. just wondering did you start in boxing or kickboxing? i will have to disagree on this one. i think its a shit idea unless you are ali. and you never step straight back in boxing, you circle out. this is boxing basics. i though you were a striking coach? notice how ali stopped pulling back from punches and relied more on a guard as he got older and the reflexes slowed. seen bisbing vs hendo, that is what stepping straight back from the pocket will get you in boxing. his coach was screaming at him to stop doing it just before he got knocked out. are you actually saying an inexperienced fighter should be trying that shit? if you are you have lost all credibility in my eyes.

Theres been far too many boxers who use the pull back for it to be said its an unorthodox technique that shouldnt be used unless youre uniquely gifted

 

[YoungCashMoney]

Pull counters are not uncommon in boxing, though they require a few things in order to work. Sense of range, timing and speed. If you're slower than your opponent it's hard to pull off unless you really set it up well. Also nothing wrong with taking a step straight back if it's to set up a counter.

Here's a few gifs of guys using pull counters (I know you dislike the Ali example, and I agree with you that Ali did things and took chances that other guys shouldn't do and couldn't get away with):

Canelo and Mayweather uses them a lot in boxing. Conor, Gastelum and Wonderboy (sorta) in MMA and I'm sure there's many others. Even our regular @YoungCashMoney has a beautiful pull counter. He's probably the one you should ask @Towel88, maybe he can help us out :

Btw, I definitely don't think you should lean back needlessly TS, especially not without a good base under you. Leaning back too much straight up as a tall guy will get you caught over the top most of the time.

When it comes to the pull counter, it is a dangerous move. I like to set it up with a deliberate forward lean or shift towards my front foot. Make my head appear close than it is and be far enough away so that if they bite on it, when I pull back I am not really leaning or backbending, I have just shifted my weight to my rear hip pulled my head back a little beyond neutral stance. That way you are not comprimising your balance and you can fire back quickly. Then again, I tried doing it against a guy much faster than me without having the proper range and I kept getting caught. It's a move you should use sparringly, and at the right time, if at all. I like to use the pullback and then my own jab as a counter because I find it's faster and easier to land, especially if they overextend.

The reason why Mayweather is so good at it (besides being lightning fast and having super human reflexes) is that he makes people guess. Sometimes he just pulls without countering, sometimes he uses the lead right when shifting forward, sometimes he jabs instead.

Btw, mixing it up with slipping to the inside and coming over the top with the right, and using the outside slip and then right hand counter you keep the person guessing, if you're countering the jab with it. Always have to be thoughtful when using any counter though, that's why having a superior position helps so much because it limits what the other guy can throw at you.

I can name a trainer who teaches the pill counter : Floyd Mayweather Sr., that is who taught me. He is almost as old school as it gets in the game.

It’s an extremely effective technique for me. The trick is to 1: not Telegraph it, and 2:manipulate the image of range

Of course speed plays a huge factor as well in terms of upper body movement & delivering the counter. If you’re opponent is in a normal stance, they cannot lean forward and deliver effective blows. If you can trick your opponent (by leaning forward into a stance where you cannot land effectiveness blows) into believing that you are within your normal punching range, and that they can hit you because of that, they will throw, come up short as you lean back, and pay for not realizing ur punching range was actually a few inches back. Bonus points if if they lean in or step into the shot because they are then colliding with ur punch.

If you are extremely fast with reflexes and hand speed, you can pull off the pull counter with ur opponent blatantly knowing ur going to pull counter ala Mayweather, with enough speed there is almost nothing you can do to prevent the pull counter from landing.

Feints would be the way to draw that one out. Or attempt to counter like Maidana

 

[eternaldarkness]

Theres been far too many boxers who use the pull back for it to be said its an unorthodox technique that shouldnt be used unless youre uniquely gifted

a lot of boxers drop their hands as well.

 

[eternaldarkness]

Not true.

Boxers can and do step/lean back all the time. Taking a back step is important, so long as you don't step backwards multiple times as to back yourself onto the ropes. It's fine to take a back step, and in the case of leaning back this is also a valid defence especially when you want to land a pull counter. You just need to ensure you have taken a half step backwards first so that you are not off balance when you lean backwards.

This is bad and will lead to this.



But this is completely fine and is encouraged by boxing coaches:

i remember marciano saying you never pull back from a left hook or you will get your face turned into hamburger meet. how did that fight turn out for ali?

 

[eternaldarkness]

i am really surprised that none of you have heard the old boxing adage, that you never pull straight back from punches. i'm not saying it doesn't work, i'm just saying it isn't worth trying unless you really know what your doing. and have the reflexes to match.

 

[Sano]

i am really surprised that none of you have heard the old boxing adage, that you never pull straight back from punches. i'm not saying it doesn't work, i'm just saying it isn't worth trying unless you really know what your doing. and have the reflexes to match.

There's a lot of adages that has to be taking into context. The reason why you say you never move straight back is because you want someone learning the craft to be able to turn and take angles while going back, and not get stuck against the ropes or clocked because they don't know what they are doing. That however, does not mean that you can't pull straight back if you have a purpose in mind and you have the ability to do so. You should know and learn to take angles, but again that doesn't mean it's always the best option avaliable to you and you should unconditionally follow that "rule". It depends on the context.

There's also a difference in pulling back, slipping and countering than mindlessly running straight back while someone is chasing you down.

 

[eternaldarkness]

There's a lot of adages that has to be taking into context. The reason why you say you never move straight back is because you want someone learning the craft to be able to turn and take angles while going back, and not get stuck against the ropes or clocked because they don't know what they are doing. That however, does not mean that you can't pull straight back if you have a purpose in mind and you have the ability to do so. You should know and learn to take angles, but again that doesn't mean it's always the best option avaliable to you and you should unconditionally follow that "rule". It depends on the context.

There's also a difference in pulling back, slipping and countering than mindlessly running straight back while someone is chasing you down.

all true. i was just surprised that more people hadn't heard the old boxing law about pulling back from punches. that and check hooks. i hate check hooks, but they seem to be all the rage these days.

 

[Sano]

all true. i was just surprised that more people hadn't heard the old boxing law about pulling back from punched. that and check hooks. i hate check hooks, but they seem to be all the rage these days.

Yeah there will always be trends that most people really shouldn't be following, mostly because they neither have the skills, nor understand the context. There's a lot of stuff certain people can get away with because they are individual, that others can't. I agree that the basics are primero uno.

 

[eternaldarkness]

in ts's case it is usually a lot safer and easier to cover up, take a small step to the right and counter with a right. pulling away from punches when you first start boxing isn't a technique it is a reflex, and usually a dangerous one that should be discouraged. like you say there is a time and place for every technique if you know how to use it properly. i sometimes do the crazy baboon when someone is being really defensive and i want to draw a lead to counter. and that shit is definitely not recommended by trainers.