Protein Shakes..Pros & Cons??

hello i would now like some feedback after what you guys posted about my post i refuted your argument.
 
Now, human nutrition isn't my forte, but I'll give it a go without researching it or posting any articles. I don't have the time for that research now. Hence I do not stand by this 100%. I believe it to be true, but all it takes is someone with a better argument or a good article to prove me wrong.

peregrine said:
1. body composition- many of you kids eclypse included aspire to be mma fighters or in games where weight classes are important. having more lean mass is important in most of these sports as it allows one to have the potential for greater power.
so with an athlete with the same workout what do you think would occur with a change in the macro ratio of the intake.? such as:
70% carbohydrate, 15% protein, 15% fat diet to a diet containing 40% carbohydrate, 30% protein, and 30% fat
same total intake, same expenditure.
he would recomp.
Effect of protein intake and physical activity on 24-h pattern and rate of macronutrient utilization. Am J Physiol. 1999 May;276(5 Pt 1):E964-76
this study shows how an increase in protein at the expense of carbs will lead to a negative fat balance. basically better nutrient partitioning.

I previously posted that increased protein isn't bad. I posted a study that everyone was on a isocaloric diet and then they took an extra percentage (10 or something) of calories either in the from of fat, carbs or protein. Protein was the only group to not gain weight (or gain the least, I forgot) and they had the highest amount of satiety. I like protein and I think people should EAT a decent amount of it. I am not a big fan of slurping shakes all day long. I am not a fan of a 200 lbs guy eating 400-600 grams of protein per day. I think a lot of people could use a bit more lean meat and veggies when deciding what to eat. I just don't like advocating slurping shakes down all day. 30% protein for a person who is on a 3,000 calorie a day diet is 225 grams. That isn't too much IMO.

Also this is why I said I don't like the "grams per lb" because I think it should be a percentage calculation. Someone bulking up and consuming 4,000-5,000 calories a day would be taking a different amount of protein than someone on a 1,500 day cutting phase.

2. maybe on a 2250kcal diet, 365gm of carbs per day using the 65% ratio is not a lot, but if a person were eatting 4500kcal a day that is 730gm of carbs. what do carbs do to the body? what happens with all that insulin? how about the athletes insulin sensitivity levels over time? does insulin insensitivty pose a certain risk? how about diabetes?

I don't think someone who is very athletic will be that caught up in insulin sensitivity. Also I think the general obese American who gets diabetes takes in more sugar, or a much higher percentage of sugar of the total caloric intake. A pop has 30 grams of sugar, that is a lot if you have a few a day and that is only one source.

Also exercise is amazingly efficient at ameliorating adult onset diabetes symptoms. Exercise can translocate glucose transporters to bring glucose into the muscle cell for utilization. This gets the extra glucose out of the blood stream. The problem is most Americans would prefer a chocolate candy bar full of sugar alcohols or a pill rather than exercise. I don't think I've ever heard of an athlete getting diabetes even if they are taking is massive amounts of carbs.

Lastly if you are taking in that many carbs they should be very high in the glycemic index. These do not fluctuate insulin as much and will not cause the negative effects.

3. yes there maybe some natural 600pound squatters who advocate a 65%C 15%P 15%F ratio, but tell me what his bf ratio is. also tell me he used that diet to gt to 600lbs and his greatest gains were from 15%p a day. i doubt this guys bf is under 6-8%. if it is he is genetically gifted and lucky, most people cannot be that lean on such a diet while continuing to be powerful and large.

Lastly I said that I do not necessarily agree with 15%. I believe that is a number that biochemists came up with. That was also the number for NON athletes. I think that an athlete does need more protein, but not 50% of his diet. I think he needs overall more calories also. All you need protein for is a positive nitrogen balance, and to get in your non-essential amino acids. The rest can be manufactured in the body. For 200 lbs, 3 grams a lb is 600 grams, which is 2,400 calories. That is the full diet of a lot of people. To make that 30% you would need to be on a 7,2000 calories. Please. 50 percent is still 4,800 calories.
 
All this ratio BS, I leave that to the professional body builders, I just eat as much protein rich meat I can stuff down my gob each day. Throw in some veggies, rice, and vitamins and I'm set.
 
dogmai.... why read (my presumption) and post here if your philosophy is to stuff your gob everyday. The ratio BS is discussed because:

This is a strength forum. Guess what? Serious individuals, professional athletes and otherwise, use these BS ratios to objectively assess their routine.

Nutrition Science is still in its infancy. The discoveries therein are often confounded by the nature of the free market economy.



Sitting at the feet of giants is an opportunity to observe and wonder what is possible. All eyes and ears should be open to the possibility of improvement. Anything less is hubris.
 
Your argument is invalid.
First, I am a serious individual and I do not use ratios. Second, I didn't say that the ratios were BS, I said "this ratio BS", it is too cumbersome for the average individual to get involved into in my opinion. Finally I never said anything about a philosophy nor did I simply say I just stuff my gob every day. Please, if you're going to argue a point ... use facts and don't just manipulate what someone said to make it easier to criticize.
 
peregrine, I applaud your scientific approach to our debate. Since this is indeed a forum, and forums are defined as, per dictionary.com, "A public meeting place for open discussion," scientific information is welcome. I'm sure the audience appreciates it.

However, considering it took you about 3
 
tell me your bf. are you happy with it? tell me your lifts are you happy with those. btw i call u a kid as you write that you are an aspiring mma fighter. i may be wrong. you could be entering midlife crisis.

i know what lifts are for trainees around 185lbs. so let's hear them. then let's hear the bf%.

i was actually doing a lot of work as not to cross reference and come up with a post for you earlier. i am sure you were the same. the reason i posted for your refute was this was going on the 3rd page and turning into an old post.

i will reread your post later and be back. now i am going out to have some fun.
 
What's the best Protein shake you can buy in the store by that I mean most healthiest. I'm gonna quit smokeing soon and start drinking those and start working out more.
 
Aston Muscle Milk is probably the best but also the most expensive. Go to www.dpsnutrition.com to get it at about half the price you will find it in stores.You should do some research on here first though to decide if you even need the protein shakes or not.
 
it's only $20 for 2.48 pounds of it thats not bad
 
Too much protein will not make you fat. Too many calories will.

I've tried both the protein shake and the non-protein shake route. Honestly, I've noticed no difference in my gains using only whole foods. And yes, whole foods will be a lot cheaper than shakes. Tuna for protein and PB&J for calories (if you are a hard gainer like I am) will be much cheaper than protein shakes and mixers.

The biggest mistake I see people making is putting too much emphasis on supplements. Meaning not focusing enough on their solid food nutrition and using supplements only to add to their nutrition. Instead I see the protein shake becoming the pre or post workout meal.

If you are a skinnier guy looking to gain muscle, consider eating to be your second job. Only focus on 'clean' foods like chicken and rice not pizza and chips.

I spent years trying to put on weight with protein shakes every day and had some decent slow gains. However, I also gained 32 pounds last year using only whole foods while maintaining relatively low bodyfat levels.

Bottom line is that you'll need sufficient calories to avoid burning off your protein as fuel. Given that, it won't take huge amounts. Try to make sure you get a serving of protein at every meal. I actually made good gains for a while at only about 100 grams of protein per day.

Think about it, if you were actually using all that protein to build muscle and were taking in even only 200 grams per day, you'd be gaining 72 kilos per year of muscle! Or over 150 pounds per year! Obviously a good bit of this protein is not being used to build muscle (yes there is basic body function and muscle repair but seriously...)
 
peregrine said:
tell me your bf. are you happy with it? tell me your lifts are you happy with those. btw i call u a kid as you write that you are an aspiring mma fighter. i may be wrong. you could be entering midlife crisis.

i know what lifts are for trainees around 185lbs. so let's hear them. then let's hear the bf%.

i was actually doing a lot of work as not to cross reference and come up with a post for you earlier. i am sure you were the same. the reason i posted for your refute was this was going on the 3rd page and turning into an old post.

i will reread your post later and be back. now i am going out to have some fun.

Typical rhetorical distraction tactic.

Tell me, Peregrine, does your ass hurt?
 
peregrine said:
i was actually doing a lot of work as not to cross reference and come up with a post for you earlier. i am sure you were the same. the reason i posted for your refute was this was going on the 3rd page and turning into an old post.

No, perry, this is a wonderful, childish way of covering up the fact that you slapped an article in your post to try to add credibility to the garbage that you're so adamantly adhered to. If you were to try something like that in any school, you would fail your paper. Your instructor would read your source, as I did, and realize you were absolutely full of it. Now, I did nothing of the sort. I read through the article, found out what it actually meant, and then ripped your sad excuse for a refute to confetti. It's hard for you to accept, isn't it?

peregrine said:
tell me your bf. are you happy with it? tell me your lifts are you happy with those. btw i call u a kid as you write that you are an aspiring mma fighter. i may be wrong. you could be entering midlife crisis.

i know what lifts are for trainees around 185lbs. so let's hear them. then let's hear the bf%.
I'm incredibly happy with my body composition and resistance capacity. What I want to know is why you're busy asking me about that, which has absolutely no bearing on the discussion at hand, or anything in terms of the information I'm providing, instead of putting your time into a solid rebuttal. Why is that?

And, how on earth do you think a child can read that kind of research, not to mention write and argue this well? Hell, with everything you've shown so far, I'd be surprised if you weren't 16 years old.

I'm waiting to destroy your next excuse of a rebuttal. I'm sure it will amuse me and those reading just as much as the last one. I suggest you really bust your ass to come up with a good one, before you lose any shred of credibility you ever had before stepping into this thread. Really, I'd like the challenge.


DridenGX said:
Interesting info Eclypse. Great thread.
Thanks! :D Read up on some of my [url="http://www.sherdog.net/forums/search.php?searchid=516799]other posts[/url] for more useful information.
 
HAHA

I love it when someone says "Ok ok ok, enough with this "science mumbo jumbo" I am stronger so therefore i win." Next time when we discuss who is the stronger lifter I"m going to hand you a physiology exam and see how you do. When you out squat me but I score higher I'm going to mention how because I am smarter I am also stronger than you.

And great post Eclypse. Very well done.
 
Rjkd12 said:
I previously posted that increased protein isn't bad.

30% protein for a person who is on a 3,000 calorie a day diet is 225 grams. That isn't too much IMO.

yes i stand behind this as well.

Rjkd12 said:
Also this is why I said I don't like the "grams per lb" because I think it should be a percentage calculation. Someone bulking up and consuming 4,000-5,000 calories a day would be taking a different amount of protein than someone on a 1,500 day cutting phase.

correct. not everyone has the same genetics or activity levels. therefore requirments are different. one person can maintain 100kg on 3000kcal, while another may need 5000kcal.

Rjkd12 said:
I don't think someone who is very athletic will be that caught up in insulin sensitivity. Also I think the general obese American who gets diabetes takes in more sugar, or a much higher percentage of sugar of the total caloric intake.

"i don't think." jeesh some of you are bashing me for being vague how about that staement? lol.
insulin sensitivity is important as your statement about 30gm from soda 'pop' indicates. athletes should be cognizant of insulin, and carb intake. as the wrong kind of carbs can lead to fat storage if timed wrong.

Rjkd12 said:
I don't think I've ever heard of an athlete getting diabetes even if they are taking is massive amounts of carbs.
again "i don't think"
yes you wrote your disclaimer but this with your mockery of why i said. reread my posts, recomp. leaner gains. i also questioned his bf as i know many well known trainers who advocate what some of you call "medium to high" protein diets.

Rjkd12 said:
Lastly if you are taking in that many carbs they should be very high in the glycemic index. These do not fluctuate insulin as much and will not cause the negative effects.
i don't know what you are leading to but this statement is wrong. why would i want high glycemic carbs any other time except pwo or mid workout?
you should read up on insulin. it will give you better credibility if you have an idea. then you will not have to write "i don't think"

Rjkd12 said:
Lastly I said that I do not necessarily agree with 15%. I believe that is a number that biochemists came up with. That was also the number for NON athletes. I think that an athlete does need more protein, but not 50% of his diet. I think he needs overall more calories also. All you need protein for is a positive nitrogen balance, and to get in your non-essential amino acids. The rest can be manufactured in the body. For 200 lbs, 3 grams a lb is 600 grams, which is 2,400 calories. That is the full diet of a lot of people. To make that 30% you would need to be on a 7,2000 calories. Please. 50 percent is still 4,800 calories.

what do you think my entire posts on this thread was about? we all agree athletes require higher protein levels. the amount is the dispute.you admitted 15% may not be ideal for an athlete. again i did not state 50% protein diets. when i wrote 3gm if you reread i said "enhanced" athletes.
did you miusunderstand my posts thinking that i advocate 3gm of protein for the average athlete?

Rjkd12 said:
HAHA
I love it when someone says "Ok ok ok, enough with this "science mumbo jumbo" I am stronger so therefore i win." Next time when we discuss who is the stronger lifter I"m going to hand you a physiology exam and see how you do. When you out squat me but I score higher I'm going to mention how because I am smarter I am also stronger than you.
.

sure. hand me one.
why are you attempting to instigate a situation? seems pretty childish.
anyways i bow down to your ultimate supremacy you are not only stronger but smarter.
 
Eclypse said:
I've argued all my life. Don't mess with me unless you know exactly what you're talking about.
this statement pretty much sums up what you are.
yes you are a very argumentive person. i can see that in your condescending remarks to me. you seem to thrive on wanting to win an argument. one should consider not editing their posts when one debates as your credibility is lost when you change your posts.
interesting you've called me "perry" in two posts. with all your academia background i am suprised you didn't read my name correctly. it's Peregrine.

Eclypse said:
I'm incredibly happy with my body composition and resistance capacity. What I want to know is why you're busy asking me about that, which has absolutely no bearing on the discussion at hand, or anything in terms of the information I'm providing, instead of putting your time into a solid rebuttal. Why is that?

Madmick said:
Typical rhetorical distraction tactic.

Tell me, Peregrine, does your ass hurt?

to both of you,
hmm. i am suprised you did not read my post correctly. i stated i had been busy at work as i am sure you have and "will reread your post and be back later"
you're too eager to refute. calm down. it's tainting your argument. your belittling remarks remove your professionalism since you are an adult.

your bf has relevance as this is first hand experience. as well you posted your clients, again i know several well known trainers who advocate medium to high protein diets. albeit carbs may be cycled. these guys train beginning, intermediate, advanced and world class athletes. nautral and enahnced.
iron addict trains 70plus, dc trains many as well. there are others but these are off the top of my head.

AGAIN I WILL BE BACK LATER. to reread your posts and studies, i will also post my own.
 
"i don't think." jeesh some of you are bashing me for being vague how about that staement? lol.
insulin sensitivity is important as your statement about 30gm from soda 'pop' indicates. athletes should be cognizant of insulin, and carb intake. as the wrong kind of carbs can lead to fat storage if timed wrong.

I say "I don't think" and "I am not sure" because I do not have scientific articles to specifically state what I am saying. I am going off previous knoweldge that I learned while getting my degree in kinesiology. You seem to leave things out such as the GLUT4 glucose receptor that gets activated by activity. Insulin is not as much of a problem for athletes because of the positive effects of working out on certain insulin receptors and glucose transporters.

again "i don't think"
yes you wrote your disclaimer but this with your mockery of why i said. reread my posts, recomp. leaner gains. i also questioned his bf as i know many well known trainers who advocate what some of you call "medium to high" protein diets.

This has nothing to do with what I wrote. I wrote (paraphrasing) because of the effects of exercising (being an athlete) on insulin sensitivity and glucose regulation and how that will not lead to diabetes. To be honest, Eclypse's bodyfat has nothing to do with anything. It shouldn't even be brought up at all.

i don't know what you are leading to but this statement is wrong. why would i want high glycemic carbs any other time except pwo or mid workout?
you should read up on insulin. it will give you better credibility if you have an idea. then you will not have to write "i don't think"

This was a mistake by me, I should have said "low. This must mean I know nothing. Damn.


what do you think my entire posts on this thread was about? we all agree athletes require higher protein levels. the amount is the dispute.you admitted 15% may not be ideal for an athlete. again i did not state 50% protein diets. when i wrote 3gm if you reread i said "enhanced" athletes.
did you miusunderstand my posts thinking that i advocate 3gm of protein for the average athlete?

Taking steroids will not increase your need of protein through the roof. The amount of extra working out that you do will demand a larger diet, but still 3 grams per lb is too much. I was simply trying to state this with actual numbers.

sure. hand me one.
why are you attempting to instigate a situation? seems pretty childish.
anyways i bow down to your ultimate supremacy you are not only stronger but smarter.

Apology accepted. :wink:
 
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