Protein Powder Primer

Discussion in 'Dieting / Supplement Discussion' started by Madmick, Jul 20, 2005.

  1. Madmick Zugzwang Staff Member Senior Moderator

    Jun 13, 2005
    Likes Received:
    Protein draws a lot of discussion, understandably, so my goal with this post is something of an informal and uncomplicated FAQ. Most guys don't seem to know that all of the whey protein in the country first comes from one of five major dairy manufacturing plants, and that most of the familiar manufacturers (Optimum, Pinnacle, etc.) merely package this protein, mark it up, and ship it to distributers like GNC. Some of them further process the protein, isolating it, but most do not (for their basic line, anyway).

    So in the fewest words possible, here's a breakdown of the various TYPES of whey and other proteins available to you:

    Whey Protein Concentrate: The lowest grade. Think of it like crude oil. I make this metaphor because- like crude oil- the isolates and hydrolysates are derived from WPC. They all start as concentrate. It has the lowest % of protein per gram, so it's more difficult to increase your protein ratio by supplementing WPC as compared to isolates.
    Whey Protein Isolate: Refined concentrate. There are varying degrees of refinement. Think of it like gas- there is a range from basic to premium.
    Hydrolyzed Protein: Usually from whey, this is processed to break up the protein chains (of amino acids) into shorter chains. The shorter the chain, the more readily it can be absorbed by your body, making this the ideal post-workout protein. Warning: hydrolyzed protein is notorious for its bad taste.
    Casein Protein: The primary protein found in milk (whey is secondary). Casein clots in the stomach meaning it is digested over a longer period of time. For this reason it is touted for its anti-catabolic effect, so it is usually recommended as part of a nighttime formula.
    Milk Protein Isolate: MPI is simply an isolate of milk protein, so it mirrors the ratio of casein to whey (80:20) found in milk. You will read below that membrane micellar casein is the premium type of casein, but you should know that the casein in MPI's are this type. For this reason, it's far more economical to buy MPI's than membrane micellar casein, and still get the same quality.

    Whey: 30 min to 1 hour
    Eggs: 2-3 Hours
    Meat: 3-4 Hours
    Casein: 7+ Hours

    Of course there are many other kinds of protein powders: soy, milk, egg, hell, even dried concentrated cow's blood. I believe in consuming these proteins as much as possible from their whole food sources; since the recommended amount of protein coming from powders and supplements is already restricted, I use an MPI as my anytime protein. I use whey proteins PWO. This is in accordance with Berardi's Precision Nutrition system, although of his many ideas, this one is less controversial.

    Soy has earned a horrible reputation lately, and although I think people are becoming perhaps a bit nazistic on soy-containing products (like marinades with soy oil in them), soy proteins are the worst offenders for raising estrogen. My updated advice is to avoid them.

    A good rule of thumb with protein- as with all foods- is to vary your sources. It's healthier. If you'd like to read more on that, here is something of an EAS primer on proteins as well:
    Protein Primer by Dr. Jose Antonio of EAS

    I customize my protein. Two retailers:
    1) Protein Factory
    2) True Protein

    Here's a basic breakdown, in order, of better sources to lesser sources, in each category, without explanation (trust me or research...I might be wrong, after all):

    No grades. Check the label of ingredients on the protein canister you want to buy. Under whey, does it list concentrate, isolate, hydrolyzed, or a combination of all three? Which does it list first? Almost without exception you will see concentrate, if you see the others at all. So in comparing these proteins, assuming that's all that's packaged, your only criteria should be cost and taste.

    WHEY PROTEIN ISOLATE (Best to Worst)
    Cross Microfiltration Whey Isolate
    Ion Exchange Whey Isolate
    Cold Filtration Whey Isolate

    Grade is determined by lowest weight average molecular weight*. For example, Protein Factory has three grades of hydrolyzed whey: 1) Hydrolyzed 360, 2) Hydrolyzed 520, 3) Hydrolyzed 1400. The number indicates the average molecular weight of each protein molecule; the lower the number the shorter the chain, the shorter the chain the quicker your digestion, the more "anabolic" its effect.

    CASEIN (Best to Worst)
    Milk Protein Isolate
    Membrane Micellar Casein
    Calcium Casein

    *Not molecular weight (aka molecular mass). These are different terms in chemistry. The lowest weight average molecular weight tells you the average weight of each polymer (a molecule made up of many smaller molecules), and protein chains are just that. Molecular weight will tell you only the average weight of a molecule of a particular substance (so it tells you only about the size of a single molecule, nothing about the length of a protein chain that molecule contributes to build).
  2. mmacoach Guest

    Whey Protein Concentrate: The lowest grade. Think of it like crude oil.

    That is pretty ingnorant.
  3. mmacoach Guest

    Will Brink is one of the smartest nutrition guys on the planet. This will explain it better for everyone here.

    By: Will Brink

    If there is one thing that continues to perplex me, it is the disparity between how popular whey protein is (thanks in large part to yours truly) and how much confusion there is regarding this immensely popular supplement. Why are people so confused about whey? I have to conclude that it's part deceptive advertising by some unscrupulous supplement companies, poorly researched articles put out by self proclaimed "guru" types, and the fact that whey is indeed a complicated protein.

    In this article I will endeavor to clear it all up once and for all... lift the vale of secrecy, strip away the myths, and shatter the hyperbole surrounding this ultra popular supplement. By the time you are through reading this article, you will know all that is needed to know regarding the differences in whey, such a concentrates vs. isolates, micro filtered vs. ion exchange, and many other answers to questions that seem to persist no matter how hard wise guy writers like me have tried to dispense with all the myths and misinformation/disinformation surrounding whey.

    Read this article carefully, put it to memory, and you will be the resident whey expert in the gym and amaze your friends at the next cookout if whey becomes a topic of discussion (man, people go to some boring cookouts!).

    What Is Whey?

    When we talk about whey we are actually referring to a complex protein made up of many smaller protein subfractions such as: Beta-lactoglobulin, alpha-lactalbumin, immunoglobulins (IgGs), glycomacropeptides, bovine serum albumin (BSA) and minor peptides such as lactoperoxidases, lysozyme and lactoferrin. Each of the sub fractions found in whey has its own unique biological properties.

    Up until quite recently, separating these subfractions on a large scale was either impossible or prohibitively expensive for anything but research purposes. Modern filtering technology has improved dramatically in the past decade allowing companies to separate some of the highly bioactive peptides from whey, such as lactoferrin and lactoperoxidase.

    Some of these sub fractions are only found in very minute amounts in cow's milk, normally at less than one percent. For example, though one of the most promising subfractions for preventing various diseases, improving immunity and over all health, lactoferrin makes up approximately 0.5% or less of whey protein derived from cow milk (where as human milk will contain up to 15% lactoferrin). Over the past few decades, whey protein powders have evolved several generations from low-grade concentrates to very high-grade concentrates and isolates.

    What's So Great About Whey?

    Whey protein has become a staple supplement for most bodybuilders and other athletes and for good reason: it's a great protein for a wide variety of reasons. Whey has more recently caught on with the anti aging/longevity minded groups also for its effects on immunity.

    A growing number of studies has found whey may potentially reduce cancer rates, combat HIV, improve immunity, reduce stress and lower cortisol, increase brain serotonin levels, improve liver function in those suffering from certain forms of hepatitis, reduce blood pressure, and improve performance, to name a few of its potential medical and sports related applications. Whey also has an exceptionally high biological value rating (though sellers of whey make FAR too big a deal of that fact) and an exceptionally high BCAA content.

    One of whey's major effects is its apparent ability to raise glutathione (GSH). The importance of GSH for the proper function of the immune system cannot be overstated. GSH is arguably the most important water-soluble antioxidant found in the body.

    The concentration of intracellular GSH is directly related to lymphocytes (an important arm of the immune system) reactivity to a challenge, which suggests intracellular GSH levels are one way to modulate immune function. GSH is a tri-peptide made up of the amino acids L-cysteine, L-glutamine and glycine. Of the three, cysteine is the main source of the free sulfhydryl group of GSH and is a limiting factor in the synthesis of GSH (though the effects of whey on GSH is more complicated than simply its cysteine content).

    Because GSH is known to be essential to immunity (oxidative stress, general well being, and reduced levels of GSH are associated with a long list of diseases) whey has a place in anyone's nutrition program. Reduced GSH is also associated with over training syndrome (OTS) in athletes, so whey may very well have an application in preventing, or at least mitigating, OTS. Pertaining directly to athletes, some recent studies suggest whey may have direct effects on performance and muscle mass, but this research is preliminary at best. Some studies have found oxidative stress contributes to muscular fatigue, so having higher GSH levels may allow you to train longer and harder, as some recent data suggests.

    Different Types Of Whey:

    Most of the confusion surrounding whey, appears to be in understanding the different types of whey: concentrates, isolates, ion exchange, etc, etc. In the following sections, I will attempt to clear it all up for the reader.

    Pros & Cons Of Concentrates:

    First generation whey protein powders contained as low as 30-40% protein and contained high amounts of lactose, fat, and undenatured proteins. They were considered a "concentrate" and were used mostly by the food industry for baking and other uses. Modern concentrates now contain as high as 70-80% plus protein with reduced amounts of lactose and fat. Many people are under the impression that a WPC is inherently inferior to an isolate. This is simply untrue. Though WPCs will contain less protein on a gram for gram basis than an isolate, a high quality WPC contains all sorts of interesting compounds not found in the isolates.

    Good concentrates contain far higher levels of growth factors, such as IGF-1, TGF-ß1, and TGF-ß2. They contain much higher levels of various phospholipids, and various bioactive lipids, such as Conjugated Linoleic Acid (CLA), and they often contain higher levels of immunoglobulins and lactoferrin.

    Although data is lacking as to whether or not these compounds found in a good WPC will effect an athlete's muscle mass or performance, studies do suggest these compounds can improve immunity, intestinal health, and have many other effects that both athletes and "normal" people alike may find beneficial.

    The drawbacks of WPCs are they have slightly less protein gram for gram than an isolate, and contain higher levels of fat (though these fats may in fact have beneficial effects) and higher levels of lactose. People should not be under the impression that a well made WPC is inherently inferior to a whey protein isolate (WPI) and may in fact be a superior choice, depending on the goals of the person. For example, some people don't tolerate lactose well or are trying to watch every gram of fat in their diet while others may want the potentially beneficial effects of the additional compounds found in a high quality concentrate.

    The Pros & Cons Of Isolates, & The Micro Filtered vs. Ion Exchange Debate.


    WPIs generally contain as much as 90-96% protein. Research has found that only whey proteins in their natural undenatured state (i.e. native conformational state) have biological activity. Processing whey protein to remove the lactose, fats, etc. without losing its biological activity takes special care by the manufacturer. Maintaining the natural undenatured state of the protein is essential to its anti-cancer and immune stimulating activity. The protein must be processed under low temperature and/or low acid conditions as not to "denature" the protein and this becomes an even greater concern when making high grade isolates vs, concentrates.

    WPIs contain >90% protein contents with minimal lactose and virtually no fat. The advantage of a good WPI is that it contains more protein and less fat, lactose, and ash then concentrates on a gram for gram basis. However, it should be clear to the reader by now that whey is far more complicated than simple protein content, and protein content per se is far from the most important factor when deciding which whey to use. For example, ion exchange has the highest protein levels of any isolate. Does that make it the best choice for an isolate? No, but many companies still push it as the holy grail of whey.


    Ion exchange is made by taking a concentrate and running it through what is called an "ion exchange" column to get an "ion exchange whey isolate." Sounds pretty fancy but there are serious drawbacks to this method. As mentioned above, whey protein is a complex protein made up of many sub fraction peptides that have their own unique effects on health, immunity, etc. Some of these subfractions are only found in very small amounts. In truth, the subfractions are really what ultimately makes whey the unique protein it is.

    Due to the nature of the ion exchange process, the most valuable and health promoting components are selectively depleted. Though the protein content is increased, many of the most important subfractions are lost or greatly reduced. This makes ion exchange isolates a poor choice for a true third-generation whey protein supplement, though many companies still use it as their isolate source due to the higher protein content. Ion exchange isolates can be as high as 70% or greater of the subfraction Beta-lactoglobulin, (the least interesting and most allergenic subfraction found in whey) with a loss of the more biologically active and interesting subfractions.

    So, the pros of an ion exchange whey is for those who simply want the very highest protein contents per gram, but the cons are that the higher protein content comes at cost; a loss of many of the subfractions unique to whey. Not an acceptable trade in my view considering the fact that the actual protein differences between a micro filtered type isolate is minimal from that of an ion exchange.

    Micro-Filtered Isolates

    This segues us nicely into looking at the micro filtered whey isolates. With the array of more recent processing techniques used to make WPI's - or pull out various subfractions - such as Cross Flow Micro filtration (CFM®) ultra filtration (UF), micro filtration (MF), reverse osmosis (RO), dynamic membrane filtration (DMF), ion exchange chromatography, (IEC), electro-ultrafiltration (EU), radial flow chromatography (RFC) and nano filtration (NF), manufacturers can now make some very high grade and unique whey proteins. Perhaps the most familiar micro filtered isolate to readers, would be CFM®*.

    Although the term "cross flow micro filtered" is something of a generic term for several similar ways of processing whey, The CFM® processing method uses a low temperature micro filtration techniques that allows for the production of very high protein contents (>90%), the retention of important subfractions, extremely low fat and lactose contents, with virtually no undenatured proteins. CFM® is a natural non-chemical process which employs high tech ceramic filters, unlike ion exchange, which involves the use of chemical regents such as hydrochloric acid and sodium hydroxide. CFM® whey isolate also contains high amounts of calcium and low amounts of sodium.


    Want To Build Muscle Fast... Finally?
    Get the FACTS on exactly how, what & when to eat to achieve maximum lean muscle gains with minimum bodyfat in record time, & discover precisely which muscle building supplements you need to be using to achieve those goals. You can download the book NOW: Learn More Here!

    by: Will Brink


    To Sum This Section Up:

    The pros of concentrates is there may be higher levels of various and potentially beneficial - growth factors, lipids, phospholipids, and other potentially interesting compounds. The cons are lower protein gram for gram than isolates, and higher levels of fat and lactose that some people may wish to avoid. Like all whey proteins, not all concentrates are created equal in their levels of the above mentioned compounds of interest.
    The pros of Ion exchange isolates is extremely low fat and lactose levels, with the highest protein levels (on a gram for gram basis). The cons - which outweigh the pros in my view - is the loss of important subfractions in favor of higher amounts of Beta-Lac.
    The pros of well made micro filtered isolates is a high protein content (90% or above), low lactose and fat levels, very low levels of undenatured proteins, and the retention of important subfractions in their natural ratios. There really are no cons per se, unless the person wants the additional compounds (e.g., higher levels of growth factors, CLA, etc.) found in a well made concentrate.
    * = CFM® is a trade mark process (hence the annoying trade mark sign next to when ever I write CFM) of Glanbia Nutritionals, a large dairy company out of Ireland with offices in the US.

    New Directions / The Future For Whey

    There are several interesting directions in the development and processing of the next generation of whey proteins.

    Optimizing sub fraction ratios, etc: Another fairly new development in whey processing is the ability to isolate out certain bio active sub fraction proteins on a large scale from whey proteins, such as lactoferrin or Glycomacro peptide, using some of the processing methods mentioned above. This was not possible to do on a large scale just a few years ago but can be done today with modern filtering techniques employed by a small number of companies. This allows for a truly tailored protein supplement; the ability to add back in certain subfractions in amounts that can't be found in nature. Take for example the subfraction lactoferrin. In many whey products, it is nonexistent due to the type of processing employed.
    The best whey products will contain less than 1% lactoferrin and more like .5% of this rare but important micro-fraction. Some companies are now able to add in a specific subfraction to get a truly "designer" protein. One company is also working on making an isolate that will have higher levels of the beneficial subfraction, alpha-lactalbumin, and lower levels of the more allergenic and less nutritive subfraction, Beta-lactoglobulin. "High alpha-lac" whey isolates would be potentially superior to what is currently on the market in large scale production.

    On the concentrate front, there is a company that is producing a concentrate with much higher levels of the aforementioned growth factors (IGF-1, TGF-ß1, and TGF-ß2), and other bio active compounds, such as various phospholipids, Conjugated Linoleic Acid (CLA), immunoglobulins, and lactoferrin and has a fat content of approx 15%, which is 5-10% higher in fat than most concentrates, but it's the fat that contains those compounds.

    Hydrolyzed proteins make a comeback: Most people remember hydrolyzed proteins were all the rage a few years ago, then dropped off sharply. "Hydrolyzed" basically means the protein has been 'broken down' partially into peptides of different lengths. Because the protein is already partially 'broken down' it is absorbed faster, which may have positive effects under certain circumstances, such certain metabolic conditions (i.e., burn victims or people with certain digestive disorders and pre-term infants).
    Whether or not hydrolyzed proteins are truly an advantage to athletes has yet to be proven. The hype over hydrolyzed proteins was based pretty much on one rat study that found fasted rats given Hydrolyzed protein had higher nitrogen retention then rats fed whole protein. Too bad no one ever followed up with a human study with athletes showing the same thing. Regardless, the reason Hydrolyzed protein supplements never became more popular was due to the fact they tasted awful, were expensive, and lacked enough data to really support its use.

    The way they were produced at the time also denatured the protein heavily. One company has a method for Hydrolyzing whey protein that uses an enzymatic process that tastes OK and does not denature the protein. It also appears to be fairly cost effective. This type of Hydrolyzed whey may have some interesting, albeit poorly researched, applications for bodybuilders and other athletes.

    Got milk minerals? Another potentially useful product to bodybuilders and other athletes is a process for extracting milk minerals from the milk. This gives a highly bio available form of calcium without the fat and lactose of dairy products, and also contains other minerals and nutrients, such as magnesium, phosphorus, potassium, and zinc, needed for optimal bone formation and metabolism. Recent research suggests that higher calcium intakes are associated with lower blood pressure, and other positive effects on health.
    Most interesting to bodybuilders and other athletes however, is a growing body of research that has found higher calcium intakes leads to reduced bodyfat levels and may help shift the metabolism to increased lipolysis (fat breakdown) and decrease lipogenesis (formation of fat).

    Though bodybuilder types don't tend to suffer from bone density issues, many may not be getting an optimal intake of calcium to see changes in bodyfat levels. This new milk mineral product added to various protein formulas, might be just what the anabolic doctor ordered for athletes looking to minimize bodyfat and maximize muscle mass.


    Well there you have it. I hope this article finally clears up the major confusion people have surrounding whey, so the reader can now be an educated consumer when they go to buy that next can of whey. Don't be fooled by the hype.

    Whey is great stuff for many reasons, but you won't "add mounds of muscle in ultra short time" from the simple addition of whey to your diet... I also suggest people keep an eye out for some of the newer developments I outlined above that will probably be finding their way into the next generation of whey-based formulas.

    About The Author

    Will Brink is a columnist, contributing consultant, and writer for various health/fitness, medical, and bodybuilding publications. His articles relating to nutrition, supplements, weight loss, exercise and medicine can be found in such publications as Lets Live, Muscle Media 2000, MuscleMag International, The Life Extension Magazine, Muscle n Fitness, Inside Karate, Exercise For Men Only, Body International, Power, Oxygen, Penthouse, Women's World and The Townsend Letter For Doctors. He is the author of Priming The Anabolic Environment and Weight Loss Nutrients Revealed.

    He is the Consulting Sports Nutrition Editor and a monthly columnist for Physical magazine and an Editor at Large for Power magazine. Will graduated from Harvard University with a concentration in the natural sciences, and is a consultant to major supplement, dairy, and pharmaceutical companies.

    He has been co author of several studies relating to sports nutrition and health found in peer reviewed academic journals, as well as having commentary published in JAMA. He runs the highly popular web site which is strategically positioned to fulfill the needs and interests of people with diverse backgrounds and knowledge. The BrinkZone site has a following with many sports nutrition enthusiasts, athletes, fitness professionals, scientists, medical doctors, nutritionists, and interested lay people. William has been invited to lecture on the benefits of weight training and nutrition at conventions and symposiums around the U.S. and Canada, and has appeared on numerous radio and television programs.

    William has worked with athletes ranging from professional bodybuilders, golfers, fitness contestants, to police and military personnel.
  4. Madmick Zugzwang Staff Member Senior Moderator

    Jun 13, 2005
    Likes Received:
    Attention Sherdoggers: MMACoach is actually Coach D (he was banned under that handle). His reputation in this forum is poor, you'll learn why if you stick around long enough. But the reason for this flame is that he has a chip on his shoulder because I destroyed him in an argument over fish oil pills:

    Will Brink is bodybuilding magazine consultant, the vanguard of the supplement industry fraud racket, but I appreciate him as an author (the few articles of his I've read, this now being one). This is a great read, and if he had posted this first, I wouldn't have troubled myself to give you guys the most concise, practical primer I could. But none of this is new to me.

    No it isn't. You don't read carefully, Coach D. Clearly you thought I was using this definition of the word "grade": "5.a. In things: A degree of comparative quality or value" when I was actually invoking this usage: "3. A step or stage in a process." The only way to determine the particular usage of a word in any sentence is context. I tried to tip you off to this with my analogy of concentrate as crude oil and isolate as gasoline, but you still failed to understand me. The analogy stands.

    Debating the overally quality of lower-grade/undenatured versus higher-grade/denatured was something I chose to spare the forum. Otherwise, I would have discussed ion exchange isolate versus cold filtration isolate (which retains more natural characteristics, but tends to be 5-7% lower in protein per gram basis).

    But why would someone buy concentrate that is often 80% protein per gram when they could get Cross Microfiltration Isolate that will be 93-95% protein and will hold the "retention of important subfractions, extremely low fat and lactose contents, with virtually no undenatured proteins." Did you even read the article YOU posted?

    Why would they buy WPC? It has only one upside, and that is cost. I said that.

    Please read more slowly.
  5. mmacoach Guest

    Good concentrates contain far higher levels of growth factors, such as IGF-1, TGF-ß1, and TGF-ß2. They contain much higher levels of various phospholipids, and various bioactive lipids, such as Conjugated Linoleic Acid (CLA), and they often contain higher levels of immunoglobulins and lactoferrin.

    I guess you must of missed that part.

    I have no reason to flame you. My last two studies in that thread prooved my point. That is all I need. It is obvious you hate supps. And sure if someone could eat a perfect diet, not worry about contaminants in their foods etc, then maybe it wouldn't be needed. However to think that you know more on this than Will Brink I am sorry is flat out fooish, and sorry but dumb.
  6. mmacoach Guest

    Also consider this : Whey protein concentrates are processed at low temperatures and low acid conditions. They can contain as much as 70% to 80% percent protein, with small amounts of lactose and minimal fats. In addition, low tempature and low acid filtration ensures that about 90% - 96% of this protein is undenatured. It also retains most of the active peptides.

    iIon exchange whey protein isolates are processed to contain more than 90% protein content with minimal lactose and no fat. This offers an advantage over whey concentrates in terms of pure protein content. However some of the isolation procedures (ion-exchange procedures) lead to a denaturation or a loss of the important peptides. Therefore, ion exchange whey protein isolates may be higher in protein percentage but may not offer the same health and muscle building benefits as the lower protein whey concentrates.
  7. mmacoach Guest

    It is recommended to have anywhere from 1 - 3 grams of protein per lb of bodyweight on a daily basis. It's also correct that you body can only absorb a certain amount of protein, the rest is excreted and urea levels can get high, hence why we need to replenish protein supplies often with good protein sources at each meal. We do not store protein like other nutrients, the body happily stores up fat and carbohydrates on our bodies for such times as there is a calorie deficit, these stored calories are the bodies first line of defence against catabolism .

    You may look at your protein powder or can of tuna and read that it contains "75% Protein", this may well be the case but if that protein only has 14 out of the 22 Amino Acids present in the human body it means our highly resourceful body must manufacture the missing aminos from the ones we have ingested. the problem being it is done so at the expense of these already eaten aminos.

    So that 50 gram serving of tuna gave you 32.5 grams of protein, but as it only had 14 amino acids present, so by the time your body has chopped and re-built the aminos you supplied it with back into the aminos it really needed, you've only ended up with 20 grams of relevantly proportioned protein making it through to the bloodstream, which in turn takes it to your muscles.

    As most of us do rely heavily on protein drinks, for cost reasons as much as convenience, it is as important to research the amino acid content of our chosen products as it is to review the protein content. But it also is worthwhile to find out about a products "protein fractions".

    I personally believe a quality whey concentrate is the better of all the whey protein powders on they market today, in my opinion, after reading a lot of information supplied by rival companies in their marketing literature and promotional material from potential suppliers of various different forms of protein powder I have came to this conclusion,

    Today's concentrates now contain as 70-80% protein, with greatly reduced amounts of lactose and fat compared to the amounts they first contained. Many people are under the impression that a whey protein concentrate is inferior to an whey protein isolate. I do not, and I will explain as follows.

    Although concentrates will contain less protein on a gram for gram basis than an isolate, a high quality concentrate contains all sorts of interesting compounds not found in the isolates. Good concentrates contain far higher levels of growth factors, such as IGF-1, TGF-
  8. mmacoach Guest

  9. mmacoach Guest

    This is from Dav Draper dot com

    Whey Protein
  10. TKMaxx715 saggy pants

    Mar 13, 2005
    Likes Received:
    whoa is there a way you can summarize some of those arguments? i didnt really want to read all of that but it does seem interesting
  11. Rjkd12 Certified Bastard

    Jun 2, 2002
    Likes Received:

    No. Don't be lazy.
  12. Madmick Zugzwang Staff Member Senior Moderator

    Jun 13, 2005
    Likes Received:
    I never said I knew more than Will Brink. You are truly the most careless reader I have ever encountered.

    And no, I didn't miss that part. Nor this part:

    "The pros of well made micro filtered isolates is a high protein content (90% or above), low lactose and fat levels, very low levels of undenatured proteins, and the retention of important subfractions in their natural ratios. There really are no cons per se, unless the person wants the additional compounds (e.g., higher levels of growth factors, CLA, etc.) found in a well made concentrate."

    Look, I can highlight in color, too.

    {So everyone knows, many of the supposed benefits of supplementing CLA (it's marketed as a fat loss agent, among other things) are not proven. It's essential to get CLA, yes, but if you read some of RJKD and BoxingFanNoMore posts in the "Staple Supplement" thread, they'll show you why exogenous increases of many naturally occurring substances in the body does not promote an increase in their function. If you do not trust the information at PubMed or the FDA, then maybe the more radical European Food Union. Of course you could trust Coach D, who quotes bodybuilders and bodybuilding magazine editors and contributors. CLA is a naturally occurring essential fatty acid, nothing more. This is also humorous to me since I thought Coach D advocated heavy EFA supplementation. Why would you supplement a crude protein for the CLA when- if the CLA is that important to you- you could eat a highly refined protein, sparing yourself fats and other crude substances, then ingest the CLA from your EFA stack.}
  13. Madmick Zugzwang Staff Member Senior Moderator

    Jun 13, 2005
    Likes Received:
    That was the reason for this thread in the first place. If everyone were willing to read everything they needed to about protein powders, they wouldn't need a super-short primer. That's all I set out to do. I knew I was oversimplifying. But Coach D has to come in a flame me because I made him look so stupid in the other thread.
  14. mmacoach Guest

    No one flamed you so take the pacifier out. I nver said I find CLA essential, nor would I take it in it's single material. I take EFA's for reasons that I listed. Now you can say you schooled me, whatever you would like. People have the link, and they can read it as they like and read what I pulled off of pubmed or other resources, or they can trust you.

    Simple as that. And yes I pulled a lot of the information off of bodybuilding sites etc. But why wouldn't I?

    Mow why wouldn't you want the higher growth facotrs in concentrate? Lasdt I checked isolate will give me a whopping two to three grams extra protein per scoop for 10-40 dollars more a bottle. Isn't worth it to me for reasons I already listed.

    No one flamed you, I just didn't agree with you. Simple as that.
  15. Madmick Zugzwang Staff Member Senior Moderator

    Jun 13, 2005
    Likes Received:
    If this and the Will Brink article were all that you had added to my thread, I would have welcomed it. Cost/Benefit was obviously NOT a subject of my post. I wish you had added the denatured/undenatured debate, and then underlined that debate in the context of a cost/benefit analysis.

    That would have been GREAT. But you didn't do that. You came in, preemptively and wrongly called me ignorant, then proceeded to post 15 pages of articles. That's exactly what this thread didn't need. This is for newbies, guys who don't like to read, and who won't read anything longer than 2 pages. I highly doubt these guys are gonna get through my thread, now. All they're going to see is, "That's pretty ignorant," then a deluge of articles they're unwilling to read. So you've undercut their belief that I know what I'm talking about before posting so much information they're going to leave the thread. Did you see what that kid said? "Could someone summarize those posts for me?" I wish he would read them all himself, but I can't force or expect that, so I was doing my best to help guys take their whey supplementation to the next level in "as few words possible." If you had sone the same right away, instead of trying to salvage your wounded ego, this would have been a great thread.

    So you're the one who needs to take the pacifier out of your mouth, you dig?

    I actually appreciate that you're recommending people spend LESS MONEY on supplements. Obviously I hate supplements: no. Obviously I hate the supplement industry: yes.

    Why? It bamboozles people who are too busy doing other things in their lives to personally check all these "studies" which tend to be anachronistic, lacking rigor, and most often misrepresented (see: RJKD and the "What is a Staple Supplement Thread").
  16. mmacoach Guest

    Oh my goodness. Can you complain anymore please. You seeked to give them information that was not accurate. I gave them artiles and studies to where they can make their own decisions. You know what all adults should do. Now if they don't want to read them. Well then they don't need to be taking anything. Simple as that. Your whole point has been the 90% protein factor. Adn yes my point is that is STILL ONLY 2-3 grams extra per scoop while missing out on numerous growth factors while paying a higher price. Many people take the stance of concentrate sucks, buy isolate. Through the sources I gave you, the consumer on this forum can decide for themselves, without another flame war on here. Have a good day, I have a class to go to now.
  17. Madmick Zugzwang Staff Member Senior Moderator

    Jun 13, 2005
    Likes Received:
    This is the most infuriating thing about you. I DID NOT give them any inaccurate information. I made no statements concerning the denaturing process in my original post.

    Yeah, go to your class. Let me guess: you're a CPT certified through some bullshit organization like AFTA or AFAA or ISSA or maybe even ACE.

    You can fool those who know nothing but you haven't fooled me. You're a bodybuilding magazine whore and nothing more.
  18. mmacoach Guest

    Certifications mean nothing. Assume only makes a ass out of you and me:) Sure you can say I know nothing, blah blah blah, flame away I don't mind. My countless clients and those who have used me with great success say otherwise. Do a search on here you will find many happy trainees of mine. Or on my own board. Or better yet, e-mail Militechs camp and ask them who helped Stacy with their fighters diet and supp plans.
  19. Madmick Zugzwang Staff Member Senior Moderator

    Jun 13, 2005
    Likes Received:
    Certifications mean nothing, the FDA conspires to own me, I suppose college is worthless, too.

    You and I obviously have nothing to learn from one another. I suggest a mutual severance.

    I'll get my 411 from RJKD, BoxingFan and Terumo. It's not difficult for me to identify the posters who know more than me; you're not one of them.
  20. mmacoach Guest

    No actually, you didn't.

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