Programming questions

Discussion in 'Strength & Conditioning Discussion' started by Caecus, Jan 10, 2015.

  1. Caecus

    Caecus White Belt

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    Hello everyone I am looking for some advice on the next 5 months of training for myself. Kind of a long read so I appreciate the advice and time.

    Couple things, I have lifted for about 2.5 years and here are my lifts
    Weight 185 age 27 (compete at middle or light in Jiu Jitsu, mostly middle)
    Squat: 375
    Deadlight: 425
    Bench: 265 (somewhere)
    OHP 175
    I started with SS for 8 months, went to 5-3-1 for a while then went to a 5x5 then back to 5-3-1.
    First question: I have had a couple major stalling periods (like 6-7 months of no progression and some regression). Is this normal for someone doing 9-11 BJJ sessions per week?

    I will be having a pretty busy schedule with a full time load for college classes, a part time job, another small part time job, and I run my BJJ academy. Additional things I am a home owner and have a wife.
    Essentially at the academy I run 11 sessions a week. We are not really light rollers and I roll fairly hard at probably 9 of the sessions.
    I did this the past six months and lifting was hard... I was running 5-3-1 with assistance stuff (pullups, rows, Romanian DL's and a Front squat day>)
    I had major problems progressing. My diet is good and my sleep pretty good. Is that pretty normal or should I be making good progress?

    My time slots for lifting would be monday and wednesday afternoon between school and bjj, and friday night after BJJ. Other than that I am booked.

    My sort of plan is to work some Oly lifts. I was going to use this template: http://www.owresource.com/training/basictraining.php. I was going to focus a ton on low weight and skill work.
    My main concern for lifting is being sturdy and health and it helping my BJJ. I was thinking this would be a good time to lift really light and work on the quick lifts as I think they would be beneficial for performance. What do you gents think of the plan?
    My main problem is thinking I am lazy because I won't be lifting like I have been heh. I pretty much have great opportunities that a lot don't so I want to make the most of it.
    Edit: I forgot to input one major theme. I will have 2-3 tournaments between now and the end of March. The one at the end of march I really want to win Do you guys think that laying off on the lifting would have a significant negative impact on that?
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2015
  2. Thunderkopf

    Thunderkopf Lol, wut. Banned

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    Yes, it's normal and I've experienced it when I was powerlifting and training BJJ at the same time. I was overtraining. You have to periodize your training.

    Check these threads out:

    http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f13/showthread.php?t=2900239

    http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f13/powerlifter-transitioning-mma-2906081/
     
  3. Caecus

    Caecus White Belt

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    I will take a look, thank you.
     
  4. immanurse

    immanurse White Belt

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    uh oh...
     
  5. JauntyAngle

    JauntyAngle International man of mystery

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    IMO, your lifts are great for an amateur non-strength athlete of your size. You shouldn't be surprised if you are finding it hard to improve past your current levels, especially with two relatively short sessions per week. If you want to improve further you might have to put more sessions/hours in, and maybe that doesn't make sense for you, since your schedule is full and it's not really clear if you *need* to be that much stronger.

    Regarding switching to the quick lifts- if you stop lifting heavy and just do technique practice, after a month or so you will start losing max strength. To be clear, initially you will probably feel *amazing*. You may experience some increase in max strength as a result of losing accumulated fatigue (it will be like you are tapering), and the Oly lifts will probably help your rate of force development. So you will feel more powerful than ever before. But then de-training of max strength will set in. And chances are it will take you a while to get the Oly lifts heavy enough to get enough stimulus to regain maximum strength. (Of course it partly depends on whether you are also squatting heavy, which an Oly programme should have. In this case the loss of strength will be more for upper body.)

    If you want to start learning Oly technique, and just doing light stuff, then (presuming you have no extra time) the best thing to do is to introduce it in stages. You can start doing technique drills at the end of normal lifting sessions. Once you are ready to add weight you can start shifting over. You could have one day for power lifts and one day for O-lifts. Or you could move over to Oly but still bench. A S&C coach with knowledge of programming both types of lifts for non-strength athletes would be able to help you.
     
  6. Suribanu

    Suribanu Damage Platinum Member

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    LOL. This.

    TS: Why are you transitioning to Olympic lifts? Why is it your "sort of" plan? You are already juggling skill training with BJJ - now you want to become proficient at lifts that require years to master?

    Jumping from 5/3/1 to 5x5 now back to 5/3/1 with some regression says to me you haven't sat down and penned out your goals. They must be arranged in a pyramid. The reality is you're going to have to prioritize and make some tough decisions. This means some things are going to inadvertently suffer and you will have to decide what is most important to you. What are you willing to let take a back seat? You will not be flexible like a gymnast, strong like a powerlifter, be able to roll like Werdum with the gas tank of Velasquez. If you did, you'd be in the NFL or have a multi-fight contract with the UFC. As Wendler says, pick 1 or 2 things that matter and the rest will fall into place. I'm not shitting on you, I'm just trying to put things into perspective.

    Just my 2 cents.
     
  7. ballhawkdawk

    ballhawkdawk ****ing Gumshoe's dad

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    For what it's worth, I bench roughly once every 6 weeks just for shits and giggles, and my bench hasn't dropped a single pound since I essentially gave it up completely in favor of Oly lifting. It could be because my Oly lifts are "heavy enough" at this point. I believe that Olympic lifting and ATG squatting are enough of a full body workout that you won't see strength diminish very much in other areas. I could be entirely wrong, but it's the only explanation I can think of. I can also hit areas that I neglect (like bench) without feeling very much soreness, if any.
     
  8. JauntyAngle

    JauntyAngle International man of mystery

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    That's really interesting.

    I do believe that Olympic lifting can be enough for a total strength workout- you have strong and explosive upper body pulling, back extension, knee and hip extension, tonnes of upper back work without actually having to programme it. And the arms do extend even if it is not a pressing movement. But given that, still, I would have thought that you would need to practice a lift more often than once every 6 weeks because of technique, inter-muscular coordination etc.

    And the DOMS things is pretty surprising too.

    But what do I know?
     
  9. Caecus

    Caecus White Belt

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    The transition from 5-3-1 to a 5x5 was actually for a specific goal (focusing more on my squat) and it worked pretty well.

    My reasoning is that I may have reached a bit of point of minimal returns via strength training in the power lifts. I have a 2 hour period 3 days a week where I can focus the full two hours on a workout. The volume and intensity to increase my power lifting numbers may, in my opinion, be better suited towards learning the quick lifts so that i can implement them.

    I have thought about this a couple times. If my research and estimations are correct I do not think it would be that far fetched to have a workable grasp of the quick lifts by the end of summer. If nothing else I am sure I can do the power versions of the movements.

    I held off mainly because I had some mobility issues in my wrists elbows and shoulders. I have pretty much fixed those things.

    basically, I may receive more benefit now focusing on the quick lifts rather than the increasing demand the powerlifts will require to progress in.

    During this I will still be pressing, back and front squatting heavy, doing pullups, pushups, rows and presses.

    The main things I would eliminate are the deadlift and the bench press.

    The only change I was going to make to the program I listed above was doing power snatches instead of snatches, and doing overhead squats on the third day rather than snatches.

    All of the other stuff would be relatively low weight with a focus on the movement.

    Thanks so far for everyone's replies!
     
  10. ballhawkdawk

    ballhawkdawk ****ing Gumshoe's dad

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    If your goal is health and BJJ, then I think the power versions of the clean and snatch are sufficient. The time spent learning the full snatch and the full clean and jerk usually isn't worth the yield for someone who isn't specifically training to get better at Olympic lifting. I also agree that you can probably omit the deadlift and bench press without much strength loss as long as you're squatting frequently enough. Make sure you're squatting Oly style.. stay upright, bury it. I still occasionally incorporate snatch grip deadlifts for posterior work, but they're an accessory and nothing more.
     
  11. Waingro**

    Waingro** 解決力 Platinum Member

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    Fascinating. I would imagine deadlifts would be almost mandatory in every BJJ practitioner's program.

    As someone who doesn't train any MA, am I safe to assume that cleans and squats are sufficient alternatives or replacements?
     
  12. Caecus

    Caecus White Belt

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    What do you guys think about power-cleaning 2x a week? Should I go with a power snatch and power clean or would power clean 2x a week be roughly the same? I wanted to spend more time on power development and I feel like the power clean is a really safe way for me to do this, but I don't want to do it if it would just be redundant with little benefit. Thanks!
     
  13. Thunderkopf

    Thunderkopf Lol, wut. Banned

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    What does your weekly regimen look like, including the BJJ sessions?

    If you want to power clean twice a week, then by all means, go for it.

    Whether or not you're going to stall on your lifts again is going to depend on several factors: your recovery rate, your stress threshold, conditioning level, amount of sleep, and diet.

    EDIT: You mentioned in your first post that you're a hard roller. You're going to have to vary your intensity level or you will overtrain.
     
  14. ballhawkdawk

    ballhawkdawk ****ing Gumshoe's dad

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    I'd just power clean twice a week if I was in your position. Make sure you're doing it right though. As bad as most people are at squatting, the power cleans I see at my gym are even worse in terms of technique.
     
  15. ballhawkdawk

    ballhawkdawk ****ing Gumshoe's dad

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    I can only speak from my own experience, but my deadlift has gone up without actually deadlifting. I do the Olympic lifts and squat. I've started to sprinkle in snatch grip deadlifts for added posterior work. I prefer those over conventional deadlifts... greater range of motion and less of a propensity to have your form break down. You can get the job done multiple ways. Deadlifts are fantastic, but I don't feel like they're essential if you get enough pulling work in through your other lifts.
     
  16. Tosa

    Tosa Red Belt

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    I'd agree with this. In my mind, what's important is pulling weight off the floor. What particular lifts this entails depends on the individual and their goals.

    Whether someone's deadlift goes up without deadlifting - that's more individual. It can happen, but it's by no means guaranteed to happen. How good someone is at deadlifts relative to other pulls, and their mechanics in all of those lifts, will be a big factor.
     
  17. lpaulgib

    lpaulgib Blue Belt

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    Why didn't you go to an intermediate program after SS? I don't really consider 531 to be a true intermediate program. Have you considered Madcow, Texas method (my favorite), or something similar with weekly progression?
     
  18. Caecus

    Caecus White Belt

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    1. I train do two BJJ sessions a day Monday-Friday, one of which is kids class where I just do instruction I do an open mat Saturday and usually on Sunday. So I end up teaching 10 classes a week, doing 1-2 open mats. I probably get in 6 fairly hard training sessions, 3 mid range sessions, and 2 light sessions.

    2. Yeah.... I like to train hard but really it is out of requirement. I am the only instructor and most competitive guy at our gym. So, I am the one who ends up rolling with the guys who want to roll hard. I have only a couple people who train almost every day, then the ones who do not get that want to come in and get a good workout when they can come in; thus I end up rolling pretty vigorously. I feel obligated to do so as the main instructor and because I can.

    3. Right now I am lifting 2 days a week, Monday and wednesday. Benching is out for a bit due to a shoulder issue. Monday I would like to Power clean, squat, do SOHP, and some rows on a band with a towel. Wednesday I am powercleaning, front squatting, doing pushups and pullups. Friday I try and do some RDL's at least to strengthen my hamstrings. I am working on getting a better and more periodized program.

    4. I switched to 5-3-1 because it just seemed like the thing that most people did haha. DO you mean 5-3-1 is more of an advanced program, then?
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2015
  19. Thunderkopf

    Thunderkopf Lol, wut. Banned

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    I understand how difficult it is to juggle everything at once. I know, because I've been there. By following a poorly devised program, I stalled on my lifts, overtrained, got injured, sick, etc. And the soreness I got from the hard rolling the day after...that didn't do wonders to motivate me to hit the weights on that day.

    My recommendation is to lift twice a week, full body style. Since Saturday is open mat day, you can go light on that day and get yourself fresh for your weight training on Sunday. That will be your Day 1. Day 2 could be on Wednesday or Thursday. Again, you'll have to go light on the day before, or you're really going to have a lackluster workout.

    So if you want to power clean twice a week, then you can do something like this:

    Day 1:

    Power cleans (Heavy) 5 x 3
    Squats 3 x 5
    OHP/BP 3 x 5
    Pullups or Rows 3 x 5

    Day 2:

    Power cleans (light to medium)
    Squats 3 x 5
    BP/OHP 3 x 5
    Rows/Pullups 3 x 5

    And that's the barebones. If you want throw in some accessory work, then I'd limit it to one or two movements, and use moderate weight.

    This is similar to what I did when I was training BJJ 4-6 times a week. I was gaining about 2.5 to 5 lbs (10 if I was lucky) on my lifts every week so it was pretty slow compared to lifting 3-4 days a week with no other sports activity. But I was still gaining nonetheless, so no complaints there.

    Best of luck to you and your goals. If you're feeling the symptoms of overtraining (sick, joint pain, increased soreness) at any moment, then REST. Rest and recuperate or it's going to snowball into a bigger problem.
     
  20. Caecus

    Caecus White Belt

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    Good stuff.. thanks for the input.
     

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