Professional Amateur Fighters

Discussion in 'Worldwide MMA Discussion' started by cc023, Oct 14, 2013.

  1. cc023

    cc023 ceejaycooleymarshall

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    There should be a time limit/ fight limit on fighting ammy.... Maybe a year or two or like 5 fights and you should have to go pro.


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    Like this guy... Fighting amateur for 3 years with almost a dozen fights and representing yourself as a professional to your students is ridiculous. In this fight, for example, Bordi had twice Peterson's experience and that just shouldn't happen in your amateur career.

    What's the point of making a profession out of amateur fighting? Oh, so you can call yourself a MMA fighter and get students who want to be professional fighters. Well, you're not really equipped to train them when you haven't even fought a full round or under pro rules.

    I currently live and train in Manteca, CA where Vincent Bordi is from. I train with the only professional fighters in town at our Cesar Gracie affiliate at MVP Martial Sports. They have fought on Strikeforce cards, internationally, and we travel to our other affiliates and train with the highest level fighters possible. People come to us from Cortez Martial Arts where Bordi is the top guy and start training with us because of our vastly superior jiu-jitsu and MMA training. Those students are always surprised when they find out that difference is because our guys are professionals because they never even realized Bordi and the other fighters at his gym are amateurs.

    This is a small town and I hear the weirdest shit... like "Vincent was offered a UFC contract and turned it down." Why would the UFC offer a random decision winning amateur a UFC contract and why would he turn it down? I assume this rumor came from another misrepresentation.

    I digress, Bordi isn't the only one who seems to like being a big fish in little water.... the point is, should fighters be able to fight amateur indefinitely? Or should there be some type of limit?

    I think the limit would help another problem we have here in Cali which is promoters offering an abundance of amateur fights because they don't cost them anything and making it hard for pro bouts on smaller show's cards hard to come by. There are even quite a few shows that put on all amateur cards these days and it's because professional amateurs such as Bordi are available to be the main event.

    Then, amateurs like Bordi make all their money off of teaching since they don't make it fighting. Meanwhile, the more talented guys who are fighting pro and aspiring towards the top level of MMA don't have as much time to teach and lose what students they could have to watered down misrepresentations of fighters and suddenly everyone is paying for mediocre instruction.

    I digress again.
     
  2. ben236

    ben236 Silver Belt

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    So he basically runs the MMA equivalent of a McDojo. I don't really see the need to change the rules over it though. He also isn't the first guy to go on a can-crushing spree in order to record pad whether amateur or pro, boxing or MMA. If anything, it should be a lesson to actually do your research before joining a gym.
     
  3. caged_mma

    caged_mma Purple Belt

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    Some states are more strict on the Amateur to Professional transition, that may be a factor. Here in Pennsylvania, we've actually adopted a "graduated" or "advanced" amateur set of rules, which is indentical to pro in a lot of aspects, but no one is getting paid. In Ohio, a lot of our PA fighters compete there because they are essentially pro rules and they aren't getting paid.

    I'd prefer a guy sharpen himself for a couple of years as an amateur instead of getting slaughtered by going pro too soon.
     
  4. cc023

    cc023 ceejaycooleymarshall

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    Definitely, I think fighting amateur serves a purpose and is important in preparing a fighter and testing his or her skills.... I just don't think they should be able to fight amateur indefinitely because it defeats the purpose.

    You said a couple of years; do you think a two year limit would be fair? In my opinion, two years is plenty of time to put your skills to the test and acclimate into competing in front of a crowd.

    Here in Cali, a couple of the rules just changed for ammys making the rules closer to pro, but not quite the same rules. They just got rid of shin guards and rashguards for the amateurs but the rounds are still shorter and that has a huge effect on your fight plan especially if you are a grappler. I just don't think an amateur can effectively teach an aspiring pro past a certain point.
     
  5. cc023

    cc023 ceejaycooleymarshall

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    Yeah, he was just an example... but these guys are everywhere. I'm wondering how you guys see the root of the problem, because in my area it's pretty obvious that the whole amateur scene is being manipulated from multiple angles including fighters like the dude I mentioned and cheap ass promoters who don't want to have to pay fighters.

    Totally with you on doing your research before joining a gym... I thank God I ended up with my team because I know I'll be ready when I enter the cage. Even if I wasn't training to fight, I would be able to be confident in my self defense skills training with my team, too. MMA McDojos are everywhere here in Cali, cleverly hidden amongst the quality gyms.
     
  6. EliteClown

    EliteClown Blue Belt

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    I don't think there should be a time limit, maybe fight limit. Time limit does not work IMO because of injury, or it's still amateur so maybe you have other things in life that keeps you busy
     
  7. cc023

    cc023 ceejaycooleymarshall

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    Yeah, that's true. I think it should be like an either/or rule. Either you can fight ammy for two years or until you've reached maybe six fights. If you've only had 4 fights at the end of the two years, you would still be allowed to fight ammy two more times. That's just my idea on it.

    Generally on our team, if a fighter does fight ammy, they pay for the registration for the year and get as many as they can in and if they made it through the year healthy they just go pro and don't bother paying for another year. This is the growing trend, though, honestly in the past many of our guys/girls never fought amateur at all. I do see how important it is these days, however, because it is so useful in protecting your record early on.

    I thought this quote from Jon Fitch today kinda went along with this thread:
    "Focus on the skillset. Don't worry about getting a lot of ring time, don't go out there and fight 10 or 20 amateur fights, get in the gym and spend three years, six days a week, four to eight hours a day just drilling technique over and over and over again, putting chains of techniques together, not just one piece. Then develop those techniques into your game."

    This goes along with our teams philosophy, though 3 years of hard and consecutive training would be the bare minimum before our instructors would want you to fight.
     
  8. ben236

    ben236 Silver Belt

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    I'm not convinced that it is a problem. It doesn't matter if you're amateur or pro, you're perfectly within your rights to refuse a fight if you think a potential opponent is too ahead of you experience wise. And a person should be well aware that he's not going to get paid fighting as an amateur. As long as no coercion is involved I don't really have a problem with promoters putting on amateur fights since nobody is being forced to get into the cage and fight.
     
  9. Cooliox

    Cooliox Gold Belt Platinum Member

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    I think the title collapses on itself.

    Professional Amateur? No
     
  10. Green Poncho

    Green Poncho Brown Belt

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    Six fights or two years? Experience isn't as important as drilling?

    Where do you train and how does your gym do competively?
     
  11. The Real Pedro

    The Real Pedro Red Belt

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    Another set of potential rules to solve yet another non-problem.
     
  12. cc023

    cc023 ceejaycooleymarshall

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    Reading comprehension fail.

    I never said experience isn't as important as drilling. I said they are both important. You don't think six fights is enough experience to debut as pro? Damn, crazy how so many fighters had successful careers before ammys existed, then. Mind you, if a fighter is smart they will get experience competing in single arts as well.

    I through 6 fights out there because in my opinion it's more than enough, but I definitely think it should be under 10.

    I train under Cesar Gracie. We do very well.

    I know we are on the Sherdog forum where people like to get their shit talking in, but this isn't a loaded issue we are discussing so there's no point to not be respectful.
     
  13. cc023

    cc023 ceejaycooleymarshall

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    It may not be a problem for you since you are not a fighter, but for pro MMA fighters on the small shows trying to make a record for themselves it is a problem to only be able to find ammy fights most of the time.

    Why are you even posting if you're not going to read or contribute to the discussion? No one gives a fuck about your post count.

    It's not like i'm advocating adding rules that restrict a fight, but there are many problems with the governing of MMA and we are just talking about one of them.

    :rolleyes:
     
  14. cc023

    cc023 ceejaycooleymarshall

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    If you read the post you would have understood that the title was a jab at "fighters" who make a profession out of being amateurs.

    Once again, contribute or don't, but don't use ill-conceived one liners to run up your post count which serves no real purpose.
     
  15. EliteClown

    EliteClown Blue Belt

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    I never had to pay for registration in Denmark or Sweden. While I also think there should be a fight limit, I also understand why some people don't wanna go pro, they might just fight as a hobby. I agree with the Fitch quote. And as you said the reason people didn't fight amma before is because they didn't have the option or they had other fight experience. I also think you should do grappling or other martial arts tournaments while training MMA for fight experience
     
  16. Oshime2

    Oshime2 you were too beautiful for this world

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    What if you don't have a lot of time to commit to training but you still like to compete? Or if you're a bit older? Or if you want to compete but dont want to get your face smashed in under full rules?
     
  17. EliteClown

    EliteClown Blue Belt

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    exactly
     
  18. cc023

    cc023 ceejaycooleymarshall

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    Well, I understand those scenarios exist and they would still be able to dabble in mma..... for however long the rule allowed them to be amateur.

    And if you like to compete but don't have a lot of time to train than I hope you also like to lose :/
     
  19. cc023

    cc023 ceejaycooleymarshall

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    That's awesome, I feel like more of our guys would do the extra year or so if they didn't have to pay for a CAMO license. I mean they could still fight ammy on Native American reservations without it here
     
  20. EliteClown

    EliteClown Blue Belt

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    I've been fighting for 1 year just had my 3rd fight. I'mglad that I have a year or more before I have to go pro, plus I broke my hand, so I'm out for at least 3 months plus f
    getting in shape again.

    How much does license cost?
     

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