Problem with refs stopping submissions.

[djacobox372]

If fighters are going to be expected to let go BEFORE the ref stops the fight there should be some sort of recourse for that fighter if the ref fails to see the tap. An instant replay review between rounds would suffice.

 

[Polynomial_C]

So many kids on here.

 

[Polynomial_C]

This, there's no reason for refs to put their hands on fighters unless they're stopping something. So you feel the refs hands on you, you let go. I don't think it's really all that feasible to expect a referee to be able to really pry a submission loose if the guy applying it doesn't want it to be released. Think of a ref trying to break up a rear naked choke... good luck.

He's gonna have to if he's not letting go. This is about figher safety and what can be done to prevent injury.

All your comments are about punishment of bad conduct or illegal action which no one is disputing here.

What we are trying to improve, is how to stop fighters getting hurt unnecessarily with those who crank a submission within those vital seconds of tap and snap. I believe refs can do a much better job at this by being in a better position, and when they do break up the fight they break up the fight where it matters most and that's where force is being applied to cause injury.

 

[Bollman]

No need TS. The simplest solution is for these "martial artists" to fight with honor.

The ref is not a fighter. It is not his job to break up the fight. It's his job to indicate to the fighters when to stop fighting.

If a fighter violates this rule he should be fired and not given any more money than is contractually obligated.

You don't fight fire with fire. You fight fire with water.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

Any one else notice refs just put their hands on the fighters and when the submission is held on, they just pat the fighters bodies with urgency.

Right way to do it;

Refs should be getting in the right position to stop the fight and submission hold quickly. As soon as a fighter taps he should immediately initiate breaking the submission hold that the opponent is using.

Done. If any fighter is resisting the ref's force - penalize him.

Good ideas but I would also like to know why the refs often will shake the person in the submission instead of the guy actually applying it. I see it happen far too often and it's really odd to me, the guy in the submission cannot stop it from happening so why are you trying to get his attention instead of the guy putting him in the submission.

 

[Street Level]

No, because force is applied in only one direction in a submission. The ref would just peel the persons hands from the ankle for example, or break the grip of the wrist if applying an armbar etc.

Who's to say the ref applies the force in the opposite direction? A kimura and a Americana are the same-ish sub. What if the ref doesn't tell the two apart and breaks a fighters are? All "what if's" but possibilities nonetheless.

 

[Post Crisis]

Need to develop a system of third man submission breaking techniques. Get together with some Gracies and figure it out.

 

[sprucelees]

you see the ref running towards you in urgency, while your opponent is tapping and screaming... I suppose its not enough for some peopel.

 

[BYENDREY]

No need TS. The simplest solution is for these "martial artists" to fight with honor .

This is true. There are rules and sportsmanship in MMA for a reason. I for one don't want to see guys take an uncessary beating and risk permanent injury because their opponent has mental issues or is just that savage. There is a place for stuff like that it's called war.

The ref is not a fighter. It is not his job to break up the fight. It's his job to indicate to the fighters when to stop fighting.

If a fighter violates this rule he should be fired and not given any more money than is contractually obligated.

You don't fight fire with fire. You fight fire with water.

I don't agree with your interpretation of the job of the referee. These fighters are agreeing to fight each other with the understanding that there are certain rules in place and that it is a competition. Even with the rules it can be very dangerous. When you have guys who disregard their opponents safety or intentionally try and injure their opponent they cross a line that should never be crossed. You have to question the mental stability and morals of guys like that. In those situations the referee is pretty much the only one in close enough proximity to prevent death or serious injury. The fighters don't get to pick the refs but their lives are essentially in the refs hands to a certain extent.

Imagine you are in a cage with a guy who gets you in a vulnerable position where you can no longer protect yourself and you are verbally submitting and tapping trying to end the fight but he is obviously trying to inflict serious injury on you; Would you rather have the ref pat the guy on the back and verbally tell him please stop or would you rather have the ref physically push and pull the guy away from you to try and protect you? Watch some of Big Johns old ref jobs in the UFC. He would literally dive in to end a fight and protect the loser. Things have evolved significantly since then but in the event it becomes obvious a fighter is trying to hurt another fighter after the fight has ended I would expect refs to conduct themselves like Big John and not as you suggest. Penalties and possibly cutting a guy are fine and all but in the moment you need someone who's going to step up and protect the fighter who is completely vulnerable. Most normal human beings would why would we not expect the refs to?

 

[SnitchInsider]

I say give the refs a taser stick. Nothing quite stops a submission like an electrical overload through your nervous system.

 

[ArlovskiFang]

Opponent doesn't let go, he gets released. Simple.

Fighter in the submission still took the damage and nothing is changed or helped for him on that front. Simple.

 

[JiuJizzle]

But seriously,

this isn't just about Palhares. This is been going on long enough and I've seen it for many years and it's no surprise this is happening. To avoid this, refs have to stop the fight differently regarding submissions. The refs have to intervene directly with the submission hold to prevent injury to the fighter. This is about protecting the athletes, avoiding injury as well as making it clearer to the person applying a submission. You cannot mess about with heel hooks, a fraction of a second is enough to do serious damage. Refs should be on the ball and stopping the fight where it matters and when it matters - removing force to the ankle or joint.

Many refs just touch the area of the submission. They have to shout 'STOP' while applying a counter force to whatever is being cranked. Again, this is making it much clearer to the person doing the submission, alerting both fighters the match is over and it is physically removing force to what can cause or worsen an injury.

Agreed. Heel hooks sink very quick and can cause serious damage just as fast. In fact, in my gym, we don't even allow anyone below the rank of purple belt to use the technique while sparring. Novice grapplers who unintentionally attemp to HH are just as dangerous as a guy like Palhares who has a track record of intentionally torquing the hold after his opponent has conceded. Never cared for the guy.

 

[ayiio]

In this BS organization yes. I will give an unrelated example that illustrate my point about UFC antics:

You lay`n pray for 3 fights in a row, get a title shot and get your ass beat.

Then you get popped for PED`s, win more 3 fights and than get your ass beat AGAIN.

If you ask someone who does not know the history, they will find it ridiculously crazy when they find out that the fighter we`re talking about actually managed to get a title shot right away after his second championship ass beating. Of course, with a TRT exemption.

On a side note : you clearly have no clue what LnP is .

 

[Sam9104]

There should be some kind of shock device, where the ref could trigger from a remote control. This or a water bucket...

But seriously, Toquinho had clear evidences that the fight was over.

It would be fun if the ref, in the heat of the moment, triggered it on the guy caught in the submission, though :/.