News Prime JDS vs Current JDS

[mkt]

It is rather amusing in retrospect to consider how much shit was talked at the ex Pride HW's not staying into their primes in their late 30's .

Another lie. The Pride HWs allegedly left their prime in their early 30s. In Cro Cop and Big Nog's case, it was around the beginning of 2007, the moment they signed UFC contracts. Before that everyone considered them "prime."

 

[mkt]

I agree with all of this, except you cant really say that was prime Fedor. He had already slowed down a good deal. I mean, his previous fight was with a guy that changed tires at Walmart and after that, lost to Bigfoot and Hendo. He was out of his prime before this fight.

Fedor was younger than Ngannou at the time...and MUCH younger than Stipe and Cormier. His handspeed looked about the same vs. Werdum as it did in Pride. He just believed too much of his own press that he could "fight opponents at their strengths" and chose to jump in Werdum's guard. An older, fatter, more damaged version of Roy Nelson escaped a bad position on the ground vs. Werdum, so I don't think being slightly past his prime had anything to do Fedor getting submitted.

 

[mjfan23]

Nope. JDS dominated and finished Cro Cop in 2009, just 3 years after most of Sherdog declared Mirko the "Best HW Striker Eva" in the Pride Conflict Absolute tournament. Your skills don't diminish that fast. And the fact you used Ngannou vs. JDS as a counter-example is both telling and ridiculous. That was a version of JDS who had been through 2 horrible wars with Cain and was clearly much worse for the wear.

Yes your skills don’t dimish that fast. Yet when JDs got beaten up by the first three relatively young (aside from Reem) strikers his losing (in brutal fashion btw) was attributed to his decline.

if you don’t diminish that fast why did jds?

mirko has been in over a 100 boxing kickboxing and mma fights by then, jds only a couple or so dozen.

 

[moreorless87]

Nope. JDS dominated and finished Cro Cop in 2009, just 3 years after most of Sherdog declared Mirko the "Best HW Striker Eva" in the Pride Conflict Absolute tournament. Your skills don't diminish that fast. And the fact you used Ngannou vs. JDS as a counter-example is both telling and ridiculous. That was a version of JDS who had been through 2 horrible wars with Cain and was clearly much worse for the wear.

Both were clearly past their primes in those respective matches though, Mirko was knocked out of his by Gonzaga and then progressively looked worse for the next couple of years only escaping a loss to Reem due to an illegal knee. He had a major knee operation in early 2009 especially and I think after that you could see he simply didn't have anything like his own speed/mobility, he's slow and hittable very Al Turk before JDS.

Still though he gave Jnr a pretty good test, caught him with the left straight multiple times and some had him winning the opening round. That was I think arguably the first sign of JDS's weaknesses, the sub loss pre UFC I think was just a moments sloppiness early in his career but here he had problems timing a good counter fighting even after his prime.

I view JDS rather like Wanderlei(obviously quite a bit larger) in that he did always have clear defensive flaws but offensively he was fast and often accurate(not every punch of course but some of them were), certainly not just a brawler.

Decline wise again I don't think the Cain loses shifted him out of his physical prime straight away, at that stage he was young and fresh enough to take a good deal of damage the same way Nog was vs Fedor. I think its moreso everyone saw that he was weak defensively against the cage so they tried to exploit it plus a loss of confidence on his part making it easier to back him up.

Mirko in 2007 was older and more shop worn than JDS was when he lost to Cain, over 50 K-1 and MMA fights dating back over a decade. Even if he'd not lost to Gonzaga I still suspect he would have only had another couple of years at the top before time caught up with him.

 

[Franklin U.]

To different planets . Cain , personally, disfigured that man amongst other things.The significant regression came after 2nd mollywhopping.

JDS has always brought it , a former UFC champ so I hope he made plenty of bank and handled his finances well.

 

[krelianx]

He obviously aged badly (like Teixeira), and USADA did a number on him. He lost his savagery pretty clearly, and those beating by Cain were pretty definitive.

 

[moreorless87]

That's been true of pretty much every elite HW striker. And before anyone wimpers "Fedor," watch his brawling slopfest vs. Bigfoot. That was a 32-year old Fedor, in or close to his prime, so no excuses. He was never nearly as technical as his fans thought.

Actually he was 34 years old by the Bigfoot fight, almost the same age for example that Roy Jones lost to Tarver so hardly some unique early decline, again fighters lasting into their late 30's in their primes in the UFC have a history of having been on PEDs.

Technically I think you clearly see a decline as well, he's planting his feet throwing sloppy hook combos against Bigfoot in a way he never did against fresh elite opponents previously. That Fedor would have probably walked into Mirko's left straight but the peak version IMHO had the best defensive we've ever seen at HW, obviously not a classic technical boxer but he had the ability to slip punchs we don't often see, he probably slips Mirko's left straight about a dozen times in that fight.

His style was always heavily dependant on speed though. older slower and sloppier Fedor can't slip the punchs and gets caught coming in.

 

[PinkFlammingo]

hope he retires.

Me too

 

[Miiiiiiighty]

That's been true of pretty much every elite HW striker. And before anyone wimpers "Fedor," watch his brawling slopfest vs. Bigfoot. That was a 32-year old Fedor, in or close to his prime, so no excuses. He was never nearly as technical as his fans thought.

But he was fast enough to get away with his unorthodox style, especially since he had the takedown threat.

As far as age is concerned Fedor was born in 1976 and BigFoot fight took place in 2011 IIRC.
So you I'll save you the math, he was near 35 years old.
If you think you are anyway close to athletic prime at 35 years old then please eat your foot.
Only way to be close to it is to be juiced to the gills which he obviously wasn't since his body started showing age signs of a middle aged man ( and of course stopping doing S'n'C to focus on technique for years didn't help ).

And even juiced to the gills you will still be slower/less explosive at 35, that's why you'll never see a 35 years old olympic gold medallist in weightlifting or sprinting.
Bolf was done at 29 years old and even all time greats like Pyrros Dimas or Naim Suleimanoglu couldn't do it at respectively 34 and 33 years old...

 

[Miiiiiiighty]

Actually he was 34 years old by the Bigfoot fight, almost the same age for example that Roy Jones lost to Tarver so hardly some unique early decline, again fighters lasting into their late 30's in their primes in the UFC have a history of having been on PEDs.

Technically I think you clearly see a decline as well, he's planting his feet throwing sloppy hook combos against Bigfoot in a way he never did against fresh elite opponents previously. That Fedor would have probably walked into Mirko's left straight but the peak version IMHO had the best defensive we've ever seen at HW, obviously not a classic technical boxer but he had the ability to slip punchs we don't often see, he probably slips Mirko's left straight about a dozen times in that fight.

His style was always heavily dependant on speed though. older slower and sloppier Fedor can't slip the punchs and gets caught coming in.

Yeah the revisionnism is out of hand on these boards.
Probably new s who didn't behold Fedor's run during his prime.

Fightmetrics had a statistic about the most elusive fighter back a decade ago and Fedor was the fighter who absorbed the less strikes per minute in front of two
counterstrikers with legendary defense ( in their primes ) Machida and Anderson...

 

[Miiiiiiighty]

Nope. JDS dominated and finished Cro Cop in 2009, just 3 years after most of Sherdog declared Mirko the "Best HW Striker Eva" in the Pride Conflict Absolute tournament. Your skills don't diminish that fast. And the fact you used Ngannou vs. JDS as a counter-example is both telling and ridiculous. That was a version of JDS who had been through 2 horrible wars with Cain and was clearly much worse for the wear.

Sure let's act like he didn't get KO'ed in a devastating fashion between 2006 and 2009.. LMAO
As if that kind of things had no impact on a fighter's mindset/confidence/physical ability ( hello mirko's ankle :-( )

Btw Mirko, a speed based small HW, was 35 years old against JDS too.
He had almost two decades of pro fighting back then with 30+ Kickboxing bouts, near 60 amateur level boxing bouts and 30+ MMA fights...
But let's conveniently ignore wear and tear...

On the other hand JDS started training in his 20's and was done before being 30..with half as much MMA fights...
Let that sink in...

 

[IloveTHIS]

Prime JDS would make today's JDS drop the soap in under 30 seconds.

He had one of the best streaks in mma history. Damn shame how far gone he is and I hope for his sake he never fights again

 

[moreorless87]

Yeah the revisionnism is out of hand on these boards.
Probably new s who didn't behold Fedor's run during his prime.

Fightmetrics had a statistic about the most elusive fighter back a decade ago and Fedor was the fighter who absorbed the less strikes per minute in front of two
counterstrikers with legendary defense ( in their primes ) Machida and Anderson...

That's being a lead fighter as well rather than a counter fighter, Anderson looked great countering a sloppy Forrest but I think Fedor in his prime had better defence, Crocop and Nog the 3rd time struggled to land anything on him and they weren't panicking and sloppy.

Honestly I think Fedor is one of the few guys(maybe Dom Cruz as well but only backing up) in MMA who genuinely looked "loose" in the fashion of a good boxer even though of course his game was very MMA focused.

His style to me kind of feels like a way MMA could have evolved but didn't and instead we had more guys fighting upright and more stiffly.

 

[Saku'sEar]

Garbage--total revisionist history. He was the first fighter to 1-punch KO Werdum...and Werdum didn't get finished again until years later. The same Werdum fought prime versions of Sergei, Arlovski, Fedor, Overem (twice) and many other hard hitters...and no one did what JDS did. JDS beat everyone they put in front of him until the Cain rematch--wrestlers, BJJ guys and "K-1" strikers like Cro-Cop.

Prime Fedor he says...
Lol. He busted his hand/thumb 3/4 timed until then?
Teah real prime-y.

 

[IrritatedTomcat]

who cares about fanboys. Fedor was already declining by the arlovski fight, which his own trainers admitted in the postfight interview

ohhh so he had trouble with Arlovski so he’s declining?

Fedor fans are one of the worst fanbases ever.

 

[IrritatedTomcat]

I agree. Not a Fedor fan, but I give him the respect he deserves. I remember being at the beach on vacation watching Fedor have trouble getting rid of Rogers and his punches looked so much slower. Of course the commentators were amazed by what Fedor was throwing, but it was quite clear this was not the same Fedor that fought Cro Cop.

I definitely give him the respect he deserves, the fanboys are just mad I don’t worship him.

 

[ImNotMirsadBektic]

Cain and JDS are the most overrated HW champs in the history of the UFC. The guys here that say prime JDS would have KOed Stipe and Francis should deactivate their accounts.

 

[daemusvladornu]

Next thing you're going to say is prime Liddell beats current Liddell. Thanks for pointing out the obvious that a younger, healthier and hungrier version of them self would kick their ass...

 

[moreorless87]

Cain and JDS are the most overrated HW champs in the history of the UFC. The guys here that say prime JDS would have KOed Stipe and Francis should deactivate their accounts.

A JDS on the slide did beat Stipe of course and hurt him quite badly so I don't think that's very unrealistic, Stipe beat him several years latter and further on the decline.

I do actually think Stipe would be a big test for any version of Cain, I could definitely see him popping him with the kind of counter he landed on Werdum as he rushes forward.

Stipe's weakness IMHO would be more technical strikers in their primes.

.

 

[acannxr]

Garbage--total revisionist history. He was the first fighter to 1-punch KO Werdum...and Werdum didn't get finished again until years later. The same Werdum fought prime versions of Sergei, Arlovski, Fedor, Overem (twice) and many other hard hitters...and no one did what JDS did. JDS beat everyone they put in front of him until the Cain rematch--wrestlers, BJJ guys and "K-1" strikers like Cro-Cop.

Don't talk about revisionist history and then proceed to say that Werdum fought a prime Fedor; Fedor passed his prime by 2008.