Prime CroCop was way better than Reyes, Santos, Smith and Gus.

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Mixfight said:
Where is this notion coming from that these guys are so good? Because they fight in the UFC? These guys are OK at best but I havent seen anything from them that suggests they are more special, more skilled or more deadly than the elites from 10-15 years ago.

Anthony Smith is a journeyman MW bum with 15 losses who has been stopped by the likes of Josh Neer. His title shot was given to him on the premise of beating an ancient Shogun and a shot, CTE Rashad.

Santos is a MW bum who got stopped by David Branch of all people lol and dispatched by Mousasi as if he was a can. Then he goes to LHW and beats an average Blacowizc and a glassjaw Manuwa and gets a title shot. Again what the hell makes him special or elite? Nothing. The answer is he is in the UFC and that's all these geeks need to as a measuring tool to assess the level of a fighter.

Then you have Dominick Reyes. A guy who trains at an unknown gym, has 12 fights and got his title shot from going life and death with Volkan Nogroundgameir and KOing Chris "KOd in 4 of his last 6" Weidman. Again Reyes is a decent fighter and might he good one day but he isnt special.

Let's not forget Gustafson who was talking retirement before the Jones rematch and then got smashed by Jones and got choked out by journeyman Smith in his next fight. That was Jones' last finish and he had steroids in his system that night. Nevada refused to sanction him so the UFC literally moved the event last minute to another state.

The fact is all of these guys are average fighters. They are being billed as elites in the division because insecure basement dwelling Jon Jones fans can't seem to accept the undeniable fact that without his steroids hes is boring, unimpressive and highly competitive with these guys who arent even that special.

This is a live case study of steroid use and how taking steroids effects your performance in sports. Also shows how much the UFC brand plays a role in the way fighters are measured.

The UFC geeks are insecure and always need to attach a fake GOAT to the brand to convince themselves theyre witnessing something special. First it was Anderson's nuts they hung on but then he took some Ls they hopped off that bandwagon and got on the Jones wagon. Now when Jones looks unimpressive against an average fighter these "fans" attempt to inflate the Anthony Smiths, Santos, and Reyes of the world to make it seem like Jones the so called "GOAT" is struggling against great fighters but showing great heart and winning tough fights. In reality hes just boring and unimpressive.

A prime Mirko would flush these guys easily. Jones can't because he cant do it without his steroids. You dont need to lie to kick it and act like hes been impressive.

UFC did a great job of building their brand to such a degree that any fighter who fights in the UFC is suddenly special and elite. If Anythony Smith and Santos were fighting in Bellator every UFC fanboy on this forum would disregard them as journeyman bums or UFC "castoffs"

But when their fake GOAT struggles with these bums its suddenly "Jones has octagon control" and "pressure " and "won a tough fight like a true champ" or whatever else Rogans stupid ass says during Jones fights.

Great job UFC. Brilliant marketing..

The real ones know what's up though. Dominick Reyes, Santos and Smith would get beat down by a prime Cro Cop in one night. And current, unimpressive, steroidless Jones would get beaten down by prime Cro Cop as well.

Dont fight the facts.
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I would hate to be a fan of mma and see things the way you do with your ridiculous expectations. Those guys are all bums? Really? So a good fighter finally graces a UFC every like 6 months in your world? That sucks, it must be boring. Seriously though, how pathetic are some of these fans these days lol, spending 100X more time on Sherdog than actually watching the sport and complaining and crying about every little thing.

"The fact is all of these guys are average fighters"

Are people seriously this simple minded? There's about a thousand fights a week in mma and you're telling us that those guys you mentioned are average? Makes me wonder what your other 8,000 + posts are like.
 
No Skill Gap said:
The LHW division is the weakest men's division in the UFC.

Pride had a lot of great fighters, but it also had a ton of overrated fighters. Cro-Cop and Fedor were two of them. I know that's blasphemy for the Pride stans, but it's also true.

Cro-Cop lost to Brendan Schaub. He lost three straight in the UFC to Mir, Schaub, and Roy Nelson. Mirko Cro-Cop was around 35 years old at the time, so it's not like he was super old or far gone past his prime either (and probably on PEDs let's be real).

Cro-Cop was around 32-33 years old during his first UFC run where he beat a complete bum (Eddie Sanchez) and then lost to Gonzaga and Kongo back to back.

Pride was awesome. But Pride fans need to get a grasp on reality, please accept reality. Fedor and Cro-Cop were awesome in Pride, but they fought a ton of cans and were overrated. Anyone with a shred of objectivity and intelligence can see that.
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PRIDE had the better fighters at the time. Fedor, Cro Cop, Big Nog are better than Sylvia, Mir, and Arlovski. You also can't rely on age as a measuring stick for someone's prime. If a fighters starts early, chances are they'll burnout earlier than someone like DC or Couture who started when they were in their 30s. Cro Cop already had a career in K1 with over 20 fights and well over 30 mma fights by the time he entered the UFC.
 
Would favor best Fedor over best Jones, but best Jones over best Crocop
 
Prime mirko could beat them all in a single night tourney style but how is it Jon Jones fault that a HW great in his prime can run through his opposition?
 
mjfan23 said:
Prime mirko could beat them all in a single night tourney style but how is it Jon Jones fault that a HW great in his prime can run through his opposition?
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Read this thread and you will see why its Jones fault.

There are people in here who say current Jones would high kick KO prime Mirko. And they're serious
 
Mixfight said:
Read this thread and you will see why its Jones fault.

There are people in here who say current Jones would high kick KO prime Mirko. And they're serious
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Lol current Jones would never even agree to fight Mirko let alone KO him. Jones is very methodical and risk averse he picks his fights and has never picked a upper division opponent. He is even reluctant to fight a 50 year old DC at HW a man he has already beaten 1.5 times
 
Prime Cro Cop was viciously KO'd by Kevin Randleman.
 
Mixfight said:
Where is this notion coming from that these guys are so good? Because they fight in the UFC? These guys are OK at best but I havent seen anything from them that suggests they are more special, more skilled or more deadly than the elites from 10-15 years ago.

Anthony Smith is a journeyman MW bum with 15 losses who has been stopped by the likes of Josh Neer. His title shot was given to him on the premise of beating an ancient Shogun and a shot, CTE Rashad.

Santos is a MW bum who got stopped by David Branch of all people lol and dispatched by Mousasi as if he was a can. Then he goes to LHW and beats an average Blacowizc and a glassjaw Manuwa and gets a title shot. Again what the hell makes him special or elite? Nothing. The answer is he is in the UFC and that's all these geeks need to as a measuring tool to assess the level of a fighter.

Then you have Dominick Reyes. A guy who trains at an unknown gym, has 12 fights and got his title shot from going life and death with Volkan Nogroundgameir and KOing Chris "KOd in 4 of his last 6" Weidman. Again Reyes is a decent fighter and might he good one day but he isnt special.

Let's not forget Gustafson who was talking retirement before the Jones rematch and then got smashed by Jones and got choked out by journeyman Smith in his next fight. That was Jones' last finish and he had steroids in his system that night. Nevada refused to sanction him so the UFC literally moved the event last minute to another state.

The fact is all of these guys are average fighters. They are being billed as elites in the division because insecure basement dwelling Jon Jones fans can't seem to accept the undeniable fact that without his steroids hes is boring, unimpressive and highly competitive with these guys who arent even that special.

This is a live case study of steroid use and how taking steroids effects your performance in sports. Also shows how much the UFC brand plays a role in the way fighters are measured.

The UFC geeks are insecure and always need to attach a fake GOAT to the brand to convince themselves theyre witnessing something special. First it was Anderson's nuts they hung on but then he took some Ls they hopped off that bandwagon and got on the Jones wagon. Now when Jones looks unimpressive against an average fighter these "fans" attempt to inflate the Anthony Smiths, Santos, and Reyes of the world to make it seem like Jones the so called "GOAT" is struggling against great fighters but showing great heart and winning tough fights. In reality hes just boring and unimpressive.

A prime Mirko would flush these guys easily. Jones can't because he cant do it without his steroids. You dont need to lie to kick it and act like hes been impressive.

UFC did a great job of building their brand to such a degree that any fighter who fights in the UFC is suddenly special and elite. If Anythony Smith and Santos were fighting in Bellator every UFC fanboy on this forum would disregard them as journeyman bums or UFC "castoffs"

But when their fake GOAT struggles with these bums its suddenly "Jones has octagon control" and "pressure " and "won a tough fight like a true champ" or whatever else Rogans stupid ass says during Jones fights.

Great job UFC. Brilliant marketing..

The real ones know what's up though. Dominick Reyes, Santos and Smith would get beat down by a prime Cro Cop in one night. And current, unimpressive, steroidless Jones would get beaten down by prime Cro Cop as well.

Dont fight the facts.
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So basically your point boils down to: a roided up monster would beat a skilled but non-roiding (or pico-pulsing, to put it another way) current UFC champ?

Sure, I buy that. But this is obvious. Apples to oranges.

The Jones who destroyed Machida would definitely maul Mirko. Too skilled.
 
cmw43 said:
Age isn't the whole picture. Crocop had about 3 knee surgeries and nearly 100 fights between boxing, K1 and MMA before signing with UFC. He was not prime, he had a knee surgery after winning the OWGP before his UFC debut.

He never again moved like this. You see anyone at HW or even LHW who can move and strike like this today?

giphy.gif


He also fought Roy Nelson with a torn bicep, you watch that fight he's pretty much using one arm. His body was a wreck, you ever see the video of him twitching backstage at UFC pre-fight?

03-05 was probably Crocop's MMA prime.
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Those are good points, and for the record I loved Cro-Cop when I was a kid. I watched Pride when I was younger but cognizant aka ~12-16 years old or so. Cro-Cop was a favorite of mine, his head kicks obviously were great, all that.

But yeah I mean...there's definitely guys at 205 (where that clip is from) that can move like that. Plenty of them actually. The clip is against Wandy who's know for throwing winging hooks wildly, so it's not like it's some matrix-Silva level to evade them or make a gif out of it.

Fair enough maybe he wasn't prime-prime, but he was 32-35 for his UFC run and all fighters are generally fighting hurt. It's not just him.

McGregor fought Holloway on a torn ACL - using him as an example because he's a super popular guy that doesn't get the credit in the cage that he deserves. Guys are obviously always nursing or soldiering through neck, back, knee, shoulder injuries to varying magnitudes.

I just think personally that we can go back and without being too retroactive / hindsight-y...we can evaluate the competition a fighter has faced. For example I would call Anderson Silva somewhat overrated based on his competition, just as I called Cro-Cop and Fedor. We could say the same about Lesnar surely too, and perhaps could pose the question for a Demetrious Johnson shallow division type, a Rousey, etc.
 
arcadeperfect said:
PRIDE had the better fighters at the time. Fedor, Cro Cop, Big Nog are better than Sylvia, Mir, and Arlovski. You also can't rely on age as a measuring stick for someone's prime. If a fighters starts early, chances are they'll burnout earlier than someone like DC or Couture who started when they were in their 30s. Cro Cop already had a career in K1 with over 20 fights and well over 30 mma fights by the time he entered the UFC.
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You have no idea who is the best until you match them all up.. We could NOT do that back then. And still could not fully do it since Fedor and his MGT decided he would literally be the only great fighter to not sign with the UFC. All of his fellow Pride fighters came over. Some like Anderson and Rampage had incredible UFC careers. Others like Big Nog and CC had very mixed results. You need to match them all up. We couldn't ever fully do it..
 
Man that inept spinning back kick attempt by Weidman cost him his legacy. He has won a single fight since that and he didn't look good in it and almost got KO'd there. He took like 3 careers worth of damage from that single fight.
 
DivineMind said:
The Jones who destroyed Machida would definitely maul Mirko. Too skilled.
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Maybe... maybe not.

If Machida could stuff Jones takedowns and win hand fights to avoid the clinch and rock Jones with a straight punch I dont see why Prme Mirko couldn't. In my eyes Prime Mirko was way fiercer and better than Machida.

Prime Mirko would definitely smoke the current steroidless pictograms Jones.

Jones couldnt take down Reyes so he wouldnt be able to take down prime Mirko either.

And we all know Mirko would clown Jones standing...
 
Correct. Cro cop would butcher them all
 
Prime crocop lost to prime Fedor who lost to a UFC middleweight Dan Henderson... so any top tier UFC'er from welterweight and up beats prime crocop with ease...

2hmN3ZV.gif
 
I think Bones would choke him out. Fedor has the chance to put something together against him early or flash KO him at any point of the fight. But his fight IQ is so high that the longer the fight goes, the better he would adapt to Fedors madness to win a SD.
Right now we’re looking at the result of ...
1) Bones inability to use PEDs to the insane level that Pride fighters were
2) Years upon years of high level MMA coaches who have been studying Jones for years finding ways around his tendencies
3) Jones naturally wearing his body out. Notice how he’s limping after every fight
 
jptmma said:
What's so inaccurate about it?
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If you´re tryin´to depict a narrative where Hendo was a natural MW, fine.
But then, ya have to consider that Fedor was not a natural HW too.

Career-wise, Hendo was mostly not a MW. That´s a fallacy, indeed.
 
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