Priest lives a year without god... I think we know what happens

It's not a fact that the slavery that went on is the same as what we think of today.

What are the significant differences? People were taken against their will and owned as property. They were subject to forced labor and physical violence.

The position requires not just that Biblical slavery was different in some way from traditional slavery, but that it was SO different that you wouldn't even view it as a moral wrong.
 
What are the significant differences? People were taken against their will and owned as property. They were subject to forced labor and physical violence.

The position requires not just that Biblical slavery was different in some way from traditional slavery, but that it was SO different that you wouldn't even view it as a moral wrong.

This gets to another Catch 22 that happens when discussing the Old Testament.

This part is talking about social conditions that existed 3000 years ago. Our knowledge of the ancient world is very imperfect. There is quite a lot of doubt surrounding things.

I think we need to take these writings liberally the same way we take Herodotus. I mean, we consider Herodotus historically accurate on many things, but some things not. Also we know that his view of things is probably imperfect in some ways, and we don't claim to know exactly how social conditions were in Ancient Greece. We just have some idea.

It's being argued here that we know, pretty much exactly, how slavery worked in Ancient Israel. And this is supported almost entirely from Biblical texts. How much extra Biblical evidence do we really have recording Ancient Israel in extensive detail? Not a whole lot.

The Catch 22 is that other things supported almost entirely from Biblical texts (say the Exodus) are simultaneously considered to be completely mythical.

My view is that we don't know any of this in very exact detail. It is too long ago, and even the texts that we are using were written hundreds of years after the purported events. There is plenty of room for variation here. From the Bible, it seems like King David was a pretty big time king. Some modern interpretations find him rather insignificant in the region.

I take all these texts with a grain of truth and a grain of salt. I think the very general outline was probably accurate in some degree, but to which degree is an open question for me.

So it is pretty easy for me to imagine that Ancient Israelite slavery, something that we really have pretty big gaps in the historical knowledge of (like most of the ancient world), could in fact have been something pretty different than what we think of as more modern American slavery.

It's even easier for me to imagine this in light of the NT, and in light of some of the contradictory passages even in the OT.

Yes, it takes some imagination. But pretty much everything in ancient history does. Herodotus said there were giant gold digging ants in Persia. Modern research actually suggests he was half right. There is a marmot animal that does dig up gold. And the Persian words for marmot and ant were very similar. Odds are Herodotus was not lying to us on this one. He just screwed up through his translator.
 
This gets to another Catch 22 that happens when discussing the Old Testament.

snip

It's being argued here that we know, pretty much exactly, how slavery worked in Ancient Israel.

No, not that we know pretty much exactly how it worked. I wasn't getting into minutiae. I boiled it down to : People were taken against their will and owned as property. They were subject to forced labor and physical violence.

These are things directly supported by the text.

The Catch 22 is that other things supported almost entirely from Biblical texts (say the Exodus) are simultaneously considered to be completely mythical.

What's the catch 22?

Yes, as a believer, one can see various stories like the Exodus and note that the evidence shows they are almost certainly myths, and still say "Okay, well that story isn't literally true - it's symbolically true and just conveys a message." I don't find this particularly plausible as an excuse, but whatever.

You seem to be trying to extend this form of excuse to pro-slavery regulations and commands delivered by God. How would this work? He didn't really tell the Hebrews those things?

My view is that we don't know any of this in very exact detail. It is too long ago, and even the texts that we are using were written hundreds of years after the purported events. There is plenty of room for variation here. From the Bible, it seems like King David was a pretty big time king. Some modern interpretations find him rather insignificant in the region.

If we cannot trust the Bible to accurately report historical events OR accurately report the will of God, what's the value in it?
 
No, not that we know pretty much exactly how it worked. I wasn't getting into minutiae. I boiled it down to : People were taken against their will and owned as property. They were subject to forced labor and physical violence.

These are things directly supported by the text.



What's the catch 22?

Yes, as a believer, one can see various stories like the Exodus and note that the evidence shows they are almost certainly myths, and still say "Okay, well that story isn't literally true - it's symbolically true and just conveys a message." I don't find this particularly plausible as an excuse, but whatever.

You seem to be trying to extend this form of excuse to pro-slavery regulations and commands delivered by God. How would this work? He didn't really tell the Hebrews those things?



If we cannot trust the Bible to accurately report historical events OR accurately report the will of God, what's the value in it?

I do not agree that people taken against their will is directly supported by the text. The Exodus part specifically forbids kidnapping slaves.

The part about purchase being a method of acquisition is just kicking it down one level. How does one legally purchase what was illegally obtained in the first place?

It seems that captives taken in war would be a possibility. But that is much different than just kidnapping as is being implied.

There are also other consensual ways of entering into it. One could do so to get out of debt and poverty. To me, that is really indentured servitude. But this is translated as slavery too many times.

You are also making a permanent distinction between Israelite and non-Israelite that I don't think is supported. Judaism in that time actually seems to have converted quite a lot of people. In fact, if you give credit to the idea of predominantly Caananite origins for the Israelites, they would have HAD to convert many others to establish themselves.

Non-Israelites were allowed to convert and join the society as Israelites it seems. So some hypothetical POW captive could theoretically become an Israelite and just live like a normal member of society.

It's just not anywhere near as cut and dry as you are making it seem. At least not to me.

As for what is the value in the Bible, it gives believers lots of spiritual comfort. It gives me a worldview that makes me happy, love others, and gives me courage to try to good things in the world even when odds are against me.

I know that others can do so without the Bible, and that is okay with me. But the Bible helps me do these things personally. I consider that a lot of value to me in the modern day right here and now.
 
I do not agree that people taken against their will is directly supported by the text. The Exodus part specifically forbids kidnapping slaves.

I hope you're not telling me these people wanted to be slaves. Or that their children, born into slavery, wanted to be slaves too. Of course being a slave is against one's will, regardless of how one was obtained (kidnapping, sold by a parent, captured in battle, etc).

And this is a separate issue from the act of owning slaves.

The part about purchase being a method of acquisition is just kicking it down one level. How does one legally purchase what was illegally obtained in the first place?

The purchase of slaves does not require knowledge of how the slave was first obtained by the previous owner.

It seems that captives taken in war would be a possibility. But that is much different than just kidnapping as is being implied.

It's not any different: People were taken against their will and owned as property. They were subject to forced labor and physical violence.

There are also other consensual ways of entering into it. One could do so to get out of debt and poverty. To me, that is really indentured servitude. But this is translated as slavery too many times.

Hebrew debt slavery is a distinct concept from Hebrew chattel slavery.

You are also making a permanent distinction between Israelite and non-Israelite that I don't think is supported.

It's explicit. Leviticus 25:44 says you can buy foreign slaves and keep them as your property, but not to do this to fellow Israelites.

Judaism in that time actually seems to have converted quite a lot of people. In fact, if you give credit to the idea of predominantly Caananite origins for the Israelites, they would have HAD to convert many others to establish themselves.

Why? Couldn't they just have grown as an group?

Non-Israelites were allowed to convert and join the society as Israelites it seems. So some hypothetical POW captive could theoretically become an Israelite and just live like a normal member of society.

Enslaved foreign peoples were generally viewed negatively and expected to return to their evil ways if given any latitude of freedom, as those who rebelled against Judah did.

I'm not sure if there are any examples of what you propose above, but forcing a POW to change his religion and lifestyle to get out of slavery is hardly compassionate.
 
I don't know if there any POW examples specifically, but Ruth was a foreign convert. Actually one of the main themes of the book is accepting foreigners.

Look you clearly have a different view on this. I think you understand my view even if you don't accept it. I will just leave it at that.
 
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