Practical Application of TMA for MMA

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by DeathAndHealing, Oct 9, 2010.

  1. DeathAndHealing

    DeathAndHealing White Belt

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    What techniques or what styles can properly transition to MMA? We've seen Machida make the move but what other fighters/styles have?

    I have seen a guy who is Wing Chung fighter do good but it was mainly low-tier event/organization so who knows how it would have really went with top players. There is also Cung Le though.

    Back to the point. How can we make MMA, really MMA? How to turn ineffective techniques, into devastating ones.

    Like, could you take Wing Chuns chain punches and use them for ground and pound? Instead of throwing with power, you throw rapidly with less power so if you miss and hit the ground you are less likely to break your hand?

    Like I said, Im not very knowledge with TMAs so if you think you have an effective idea, lets hear it.

    Also, if anyone has any videos of real people fighting with TMA techniques post it because all I ever find is people in goofy head gear and actors.
     
  2. NovaUniaoWesty

    NovaUniaoWesty Yellow Belt

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    I think the big changes have already been made

    Giving boxing good leg kicks and knees from the clinch and teaching Nak Muay how to box.

    Teaching wrestlers how to fight of their back and bjj guys how to take people down.

    There will little bits of flavor added from time to time i.e. Machida using his karate angles and kicks, or A. Silva trying some crazy aikido shit just cuz he's A. Silva

    I would honestly like to see if any MMA fighter could make trapping hands work for them in the clinch and on the ground. Might be interesting
     
  3. LEGS MAHONEY

    LEGS MAHONEY genetically modified man shark

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    Ah you wont see much more trapping wise than the basic stuff we have seen lyoto do

    Tma when transfered into an actual pressure setting will look like kickboxing. You will see guys with a bit more flavour like machida or hug but if anyones expecting someone to fight like they walked out of a jet li movie then they will be dissapointed:icon_chee
     
  4. EVIL5150

    EVIL5150 Brown Belt

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    I wholeheartedly disagree. While the simultaneous parry and counter has been well utilized by guys like Lyoto, Sakuraba, and Fedor, there are many more practical applications for Wing Chun in MMA.

    First off the entire range of Trapping, (in between striking and clinching), is ignored by most trainers. Time and time again I've seen fighters miss shots against open opponents when breaking from the clinch because they throw the wrong attack at the wrong time. Training in Chi Sao gives fighters the muscle memory and sensitivity to be able to find the holes in an opponents defense and punish them appropriately, as well as the ability to sens the holes in their own guard and react ahead of an opponent's ability to exploit those holes.

    Like others in this thread have suggested trapping hands work very well on the ground. Whether it be from mount or guard, the ability to tie up an opponent's defense and punch them through, around, and over their guard is invaluable. Also the sensitivity imparted by training Chi Sao allows fighters on the bottom to anticipate where and how an opponent will attack and react accordingly. Chain punching works very well for G'n'P as well because it gives another option for punching through an opponent's guard and you don't need to sacrifice your posture when throwing them. I like to sort of lean on an opponent as I'm chain punching almost as if I'm posting on their face.

    Also Wing Chun has done wonders for my takedown defense.
     
  5. mjw1

    mjw1 Blue Belt

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    One of the main issues with trapping in MMA is when people get trapped or tangled up they run back and then it looks like it's just boxing when the one who almost trapped them moves in and strikes.
    OR
    When people get trapped or tangled up they shoot in for a take down.

    Trapping on the ground they can't really run away........

    Some of the chi sau training isn't as east to capitalize on with gloves or I can say boxing gloves atleast from experience.

    I use a lot of WC theory with the centerline, squared shoulders, triangle etc and I think it works great.......
     
  6. FadeIntoViolenc

    FadeIntoViolenc Orange Belt

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    THIS.

    Stylistic flavor is subtle, you CAN see the difference but it is still subtle.

    It's in the footwork, in the stance, guard position, what kind of strikes they favor, etc...

    But mostly a straight punch will look like a straight punch, an overhand will look like an overhand, a hook a hook, an uppercut and uppercut..... etc.

    This is coming from me, I train in a traditional Chinese martial art as well as Muay Thai.
     
  7. EVIL5150

    EVIL5150 Brown Belt

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    It's next to impossible to shoot on a good Wing Chun guy once you touch hands.

    There are still underused tools from TMAs that translate well to MMA. Vertical punching has it's advantages in some situations. You never see sequential kicking in MMA and it can be extremely useful. Heck you don't even really see Side kicks or Hook kicks in MMA. Kicking in MMA in general is pretty underdeveloped.
     
  8. Supereem

    Supereem Black Belt

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    :/

    ...
     
  9. MysticNinjaJay

    MysticNinjaJay Banned Banned

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    If a technique is ineffective it by definition cannot be devastating.

    People need to stop associating Traditional Martial Arts with ineffectiveness. This is one of the biggest myths perpetuated by MMA fans and Bullshido proponents.

    Most Martial Arts have some redeeming qualities. How you train and what techniques you use are far more important than what style you use. To be a complete Martial Artist you should have a Multi-Dimensional skillset.

    Fighters like Cung Le and Lyoto Machida have proven that you can have a TMA base and become a good Mixed Martial Artist by adapting the fundamental elements of your style and blending them with standard MMA techniques.


    Here's a full-contact fight between Traditional Martial Artists that predates the UFC:





    But really you need only watch fighters like Cung Le and Lyoto Machida to see the potential of fighters who transition from TMA to MMA.
     
  10. spyu

    spyu White Belt

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    A lot of good points have been made. Another thing a lot of people miss is the fact that some TMA focus on ultimate self defense. Just because a certain art may not transfer success in the sport of MMA does not mean it is ineffective overall. It may be extremely effective, but perhaps half of the techniques in said art are not legal. There are many arts that emphasize small joint manipulation and striking the groin, throat, eyes, etc. None of which are allowed in the MMA sport. So sometimes I feel people are comparing 2 different things.
     
  11. EVIL5150

    EVIL5150 Brown Belt

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    Okay skeptic, I know it sounds boastful, but once you're in trapping range you know where your opponents hands are and can prevent him from grabbing you with chi sao or framing or clinching or whatever.

    In order to shoot, your opponent needs to disengage his hands which creates an opening for strikes, and it's very difficult for your opponent to shoot through chain punches or whatever.

    I'm not saying it's undoable. There's guys I train with I can bust though their sticky hands and get a deep penetration step on, but then there's guys I train with that I can't get close.
     
  12. chaospfa

    chaospfa Blue Belt

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    It's all about training time. It takes a considerable bit of time to really be good at a TMA. Why train karate for 5 years when you could train muay thai for a year and be on the same level in MMA? TMA's still have a place in MMA, Machida has shown that karate angles and footwork can be use effectively in MMA, Zelg Galesic has shown that the TKD clinch can be used to TKO an opponent. What we need to see is more elite TMA guys in the bigger orgs to motivate the younger guys to transition to MMA. MMA is still evolving so here's to hoping we get see some aikido, TKD and wing chun in the UFC in our life time.
     
  13. LEGS MAHONEY

    LEGS MAHONEY genetically modified man shark

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    In the forum me an Vankuen came from this discussion was brought up and one of posters who did moy yat wing chun mentioned that he could easily take down everyone in the class from the trapping range and he noted he wasnt even a very good grappler at all. So what does that tell you?

    For one your partner has to give you a bridge for you to even do that and how many non wing chun people are going to enage in trapping? He wont have to disengage his hands because he wont give them to you in the first place.


    Two the majority of people who do trapping dont work directly with the clinch,throws and takedowns. If one gets passed theur arms then they will be easily take down and controlled
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2010
  14. barnowl

    barnowl Green Belt

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    That is an old school Point fight. Yes, the contact was heavy, but ti was not a true full contact match. Sifu Rudy, he has a punch of that stuff on his Youtube channel, commented about it. Anyway, MMA is a prime example of the "20/80 theory", it basicly states that 20%of your technique does 80 percent of your work. The numbers probably off, but if you watch a lot of MMA you see the truth of it. Or to put it another way 20% of what you can learn is enough to stop 80% of your opponents and most MMAers focus 100% of there time on that 20% which lets the 20%ers like Lyoto and A.Silva walk over the competition till somebody else, like Shogun, also takes the time to dig in to the other 80% and bring out a surprise.
     
  15. Smw

    Smw Purple Belt

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    I'm just interested to know what techniques those two use that aren't consider standard? The switch kicks Lyoto used on Tito while he was easily beating up on him?

    I'm sure the collective millions of hours in the gym between fighters at the highest levels of the sport are where the new tactics/techniques are going to be discovered. Not in an internet forum.

    If you think you can make wing chun or any work for MMA (I'm not saying it won't) then get in there and show it, or train someone to show it for you.
     
  16. mjw1

    mjw1 Blue Belt

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    I agree Chi sau can prevent your opponent from grabbing you but if it was unstopable then everyone would train it and MMA would be over run with chi sao practicioners rather than wrestlers.....

    Shooting through chain punches is like shooting through any other punches as we all see in MMA when a dude is throwing hands even hitting the other dude then he shoots in. I'm not saying the guy couldn't get knocked out and I'm sure we have all seen this shake out both ways in MMA

    THe guy doesn't have to disengage, if they are trapped say one hand over the other you will hit them yes but that doesn't mean they can't drop their level and slide their hands around for a single or double.

    If not how about off a lap sau from sticky hands if one gets laped (pulling arm) and thrown a little off ballance then once could go to a take down etc.?????
     
  17. mjw1

    mjw1 Blue Belt

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    So long there are no underhooks, underhooks kill take downs.....
     
  18. Godhand13

    Godhand13 White Belt

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    Kyokushin mate.
     
  19. Inquisitus

    Inquisitus Blue Belt

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    I don't think Shogun pulled off any technique that can considered part of the other 80% to take Machida. He just did the 20% better than Machida.
     
  20. EVIL5150

    EVIL5150 Brown Belt

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    It tells me Moy Yat isn't good for defending takedowns?

    If your opponent is shooting from outside trapping range, the wing chun isn't going to do much good. That's why I said they are next to impossible to take down once you've touched hands.
    Once you touch hands it's difficult to get any sort of grip or underhook because the wing chun guy is more than likely going to react before you get there, and any holes you create trying to get your hands away are more than likely getting filled with centerline punches to the face, or, at the very least, a frame, or their own underhook.

    Yes, the VAST majority of people trainin Wing Chun have little to no interest in practical application in an MMA setting. We train Wing Chun with our MMA in Wu Trin Do, but I've only seen a handful of videos covering practical Wing Chun out there. Traditionally Wing Chun is far too limited, and some of the best tools for trapping aren't even included i.e. elbows, knees, headbuts, vertical backfists, grappling.

    The point is, there are some valuable tools in Wing Chun that could be used to great effect in MMA, but it takes a great deal of dedication to develop them. And more than likely any school teaching them isn't too interested in practical MMA application.

    The neat thing about vertical punching from the centerline is that even if your opponent is unaffected, it still acts as a physical frame between him and you. You can't close distance to tie up a bodylock or drop levels if there is a fist and forearm between your head and your opponent's body.

    And trying to drop levels and shoot for a single or double sounds intuitively simple right? But the Wing Chun guy can feel your hands try to slip and can sense your bodyweight drop. On a good day I simply get stuffed when I try this type of move, on a bad day I run into punches or knees.

    Now like you say, getting your opponent off balance is a great way to create an opening for a takedown. When I spar with guys who aren't as good I usually try to pull them into a clinch to create a takedown opportunity, or bounce them off to create space to change levels, or redirect them to get an outside lane to get to the back.
     

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