Povetkin has skills that the other HWs don't have. It's only a matter of time before he's champ

[nac386]

that's just hitting thier prime in mma they should transition over

Clinching 180 times in a fight is holding which is illegal just like PED's.

Well, not just like PEDs.

 

[Seano]

Yes, however, clinching excessively is a foul; as the referee deducted points (eventually) for this infringement in this fight, casting clinching as merely "part of the sport" is invalid (particularly as every single report of the fight takes the time to admonish Pabon for his leniency in punishing the employment of this "tactic").

As we've established that what Wlad was doing was illegal (i.e., the ref warned him multiple times & eventually deducted points), could we extrapolate that you consider other fouls "part of the sport..."?

Does not liking being punched repeatedly in the nuts also mean "you have a hole in your game"?

Or does the infringement in question just have to be one that is repeatedly indulged in by fighters you admire? Apologies if this conclusion seems to take an overly personal slant, but you're the first person I've ever met who talked about Wladdy's octopus impression (something he did every time a fighter got inside) in anything other than dismissive terms.

No, it is simply part of the sport and many, many fighters have used it to their advantage over the years.

Clinching is not illegal either. Refusing to break a clinch is illegal. holding is illegal. Simply clinching is not. Thats why fighters are allowed to work "in the clinch" when an arm is free. If a fighter breaks the clinch when instructed by the ref, he is not getting penalized.

 

[Seano]

No. PEDs don't make you skilled.

Sure they do. Certain PEDs allow you to push yourself harder in training and get more out of a training regime than one could without cheating.

 

[aries]

I don't mean to defend Seano here, but holding excessively is not the same as PED abuse.

One's a foul, one's being a fuckhead irresponsible cunt who by his actions is undermining the whole basis—the whole point—of any combat sport: that it should be a fair fight (in whatever definition of "fair" we're working with here, which when it comes to combat sports is always gonna be a pretty fucked-up definition, anyways, but whatever...).

I don't actually disagree with you in as far as PED's is worse but cheating is cheating and shouldn't be tolerated at any level.

 

[aries]

No, it is simply part of the sport and many, many fighters have used it to their advantage over the years.

Clinching is not illegal either. Refusing to break a clinch is illegal. holding is illegal. Simply clinching is not. Thats why fighters are allowed to work "in the clinch" when an arm is free. If a fighter breaks the clinch when instructed by the ref, he is not getting penalized.

Thing is that's exactly what Wlad did a lot of time. The actual rule is: 13. Excessive holding the opponent or maintaining a clinch
So that includes excessive maintaining of clinch which is illegal. He did it loads to Povetkin and it was excessive. The refereeing was poor in that contest.

 

[Seano]

Thing is that's exactly what Wlad did a lot of time. The actual rule is: 13. Excessive holding the opponent or maintaining a clinch
So that includes excessive maintaining of clinch which is illegal. He did it loads to Povetkin and it was excessive. The refereeing was poor in that contest.

Holding is illegal. Not clinching. There is a difference. I don't disagree that Wlad breaks the rules, I'm just disagreeing with your interpretation.

 

[aries]

Holding is illegal. Not clinching. There is a difference. I don't disagree that Wlad breaks the rules, I'm just disagreeing with your interpretation.

Wlad hangs on in the clinch for too long so that it becomes holding. Yes it's up to the referee but I think the ref lets it go because it's Wlad. It should not be allowed as it's against the rules.

 

[Seano]

If he breaks the clinch when ordered, then he's not breaking the rules.

 

[Blond]

Obviously two PED busts is a bad look, but to be fair the first one was kind of a joke. Meldonium is not a real PED.

 

[Seano]

Obviously two PED busts is a bad look, but to be fair the first one was kind of a joke. Meldonium is not a real PED.

So he was just taking it to be cool?

 

[nac386]

So he was just taking it to be cool?

The bottom line is that it is illegal, and he still took it because he believed in it enough to risk being caught.

I had a similar conversation with someone on here about Lucas Browne testing positive for Clenbuterol. This poster (I can't remember who it was) claimed that Browne must have been drugged by Russians, because Clenbuterol has never even been proven by scientists to be an effective PED and Browne is not stupid enough to risk his career for an ineffective PED.

But that's not the right way to look at it. All that really matters is that lots of athletes believe these drugs are effective. They are not sitting at home waiting for peer-reviewed articles to be published on the effectiveness of clenbuterol and making entirely informed decisions. They are just going by what they hear from those around them.

JMM drank his own urine for years. JMM is very smart, and very wealthy in his own country. But he drank piss.

 

[ironfist05]

So he was just taking it to be cool?

if there's one thing the 90s taught me, it's that all the cool kids do drugs

 

[Blond]

So he was just taking it to be cool?

He probably did take it to enhance performance, but that's not very relevant. It's basically an empty drug.

 

[senri]

Exceptionally skilled fighters don't put on the pathetic display he did against Wlad. Regardless, he's anathema, now.

I like your poetry Mr Jay, truly delicious mind. I'm paying attention...

 

[senri]

if there's one thing the 90s taught me, it's that all the cool kids do drugs

They want to belong where nobody has been Mr Fist. I enjoy their company...

 

[BennyST]

Clinching is part of the sport. Having no answer for it means you have a hole in your game.

Clinching is part of the game, but excessive clinching is against the rules. When your entire gameplan is based on non stop clinching to the point it completely shuts down the whole fight, it's excessive.

Also, if you have the intent to do nothing but grab the other guy in a bear hug, it's not a hole in your game if you struggle to stop it. It's hard to stop someone doing that no matter how good you are if that is their sole intent. It's pretty easy to do especially when you have several inches of both height and reach on your side.

Not quite sure if you're taking the piss or not, but of all championship level fights, that's right up there with the most ridiculous displays of 'boxing' I've ever seen.

 

[senri]

Clinching is part of the game, but excessive clinching is against the rules. When your entire gameplan is based on non stop clinching to the point it completely shuts down the whole fight, it's excessive.

Also, if you have the intent to do nothing but grab the other guy in a bear hug, it's not a hole in your game if you struggle to stop it. It's hard to stop someone doing that no matter how good you are if that is their sole intent. It's pretty easy to do especially when you have several inches of both height and reach on your side.

Not quite sure if you're taking the piss or not, but of all championship level fights, that's right up there with the most ridiculous displays of 'boxing' I've ever seen.

Clinching is good way to disrupt combinations and maneuvers short hooks to the body on the inside when done properly. Allow the chaos to happen, when the boxers get inside their opponents and are trying to penetrate. They want to feel the bodies suppleness, they want the tight sensations to gauge their respective ability to dig deep inside their enemies flesh. If not they can offset from a clinch, move to the outside and insert their will from a nice distance.

 

[Canelo]

The bottom line is that it is illegal, and he still took it because he believed in it enough to risk being caught.

I had a similar conversation with someone on here about Lucas Browne testing positive for Clenbuterol. This poster (I can't remember who it was) claimed that Browne must have been drugged by Russians, because Clenbuterol has never even been proven by scientists to be an effective PED and Browne is not stupid enough to risk his career for an ineffective PED.

But that's not the right way to look at it. All that really matters is that lots of athletes believe these drugs are effective. They are not sitting at home waiting for peer-reviewed articles to be published on the effectiveness of clenbuterol and making entirely informed decisions. They are just going by what they hear from those around them.

JMM drank his own urine for years. JMM is very smart, and very wealthy in his own country. But he drank piss.

Your logic would work in most cases, but not in the example you gave. No Heavyweight boxer is taking Clenbuterol because they believe it will help them be a better fighter, it's not as if it's a drug we don't have information on. It's too easy to just dismiss any legitimate counter argument by saying "Well boxers are stupid". Not only is not true, but it creates a nasty precedent in which the boxer will always be wrong and never have a chance to prove his innocence. Let's not forget, Lucas Browne proved his innocence in regards to this drug and was cleared.

If you're just going to assume every boxer is guilty of willingly taking the drug, regardless of how much it would make sense, then there's really no point in even doing an investigation, as you're not going to believe them no matter what.

 

[KillerIsBack V2]

if there's one thing the 2010s taught me, it's that all kids do drugs

 

[aries]

If he breaks the clinch when ordered, then he's not breaking the rules.

That is also very poor/corrupt refereeing which allows him to get away with what is clearly excessive clinching. Just because you don't get caught doesn't mean you aren't cheating. Anyone with half a brain could see he was cheating.