Opinion POTWR 2019 Vol 8: Should The Right To Keep And Bear Arms Be An International Human Right?

[Cubo de Sangre]

PLEASE READ THIS ENTIRE OP BEFORE POSTING.

Greetings War Room Sherbros,

Welcome to the next installment of the Presidential sticky-threads. Up for discussion is whether or not you believe all the world's governments should recognize self-defense (including defending our friends, family, community, and nations) as an international human right. Let's hear what you think.

As food for thought, here's a short paper on the subject.

Cheers,

Cubo

***IMPORTANT***​

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***This is an ongoing series of sticky-threads that will take on various topics in varying ways. If you're interested in leading a discussion on something please take a look at this thread and then send me a PM with your ideas.

POTWR 2019 Vol 1: Shots Fired! Examining Police Shootings In America
POTWR 2019 Vol 2: Happy Happy Joy Joy
POTWR 2019 Vol 3: Examining Opioid Addiction In America
POTWR 2019 Vol 4: Repeal Or Respect the 2nd Amendment?
POTWR 2019 Vol 5: Based On Known Facts, Would You Remove Trump From Office?
POTWR 2019 Vol 6: Internet Security Basics
POTWR 2019 Vol 7: Change My Mind That The Word "Platform" Is Orwellian

 

[zebby23]

I’m pro 2nd but the world needs less weapons... not more

 

[JDragon]

Welcome to the next installment of the Presidential sticky-threads. Up for discussion is whether or not you believe all the world's governments should recognize self-defense (including defending our friends, family, community, and nations) as an international human right. Let's hear what you think.

Your thread title and the wording of your question in the thread don't match. IMO these are different things, too. If somebody attacks you with some kind of weapon and the only way of realistically defending yourself is by using that grenade launcher you conveniently lying around, then any country in the world with due process and rule of law will acquit you for the violence part (assuming evidence is clear).

The difference arises when you discuss the ''own and bear" part, whether you should be prosecutable for owning weapons or not. To me, it is a grotesque idea to make that a human right. Yes, the US wrote it into its constitution, that was a mistake, but it apparently cannot be corrected any more. No reason to export that line of thinking, though, and mess up countries without gun culture but with (more or less) working gun control regulations.

 

[Farmer Br0wn]

Rights are nothing more than the necessary conditions of ones proper existence.

Being capable of repelling threats to yourself and others is a necessary condition of ones proper existence.

Any government that violates this basic right is wrong.

 

[Sketch]

Yes. Criminals all have weapons, why cant good honest tax paying citizens? Someone breaks into your home? Why should you have to wait for the police to arrive.

 

[LMP]

I enjoy my 2nd amendment right. However, humans are just so stupid that sometimes I question if others can be trusted with the same right. People dont secure their weapons and often leave them laying out in the open loaded. If you are going to have firearms, you damn sure better take proper steps to make sure there are no accidental discharges. No one should be able to walk in and take your weapon, imo.

 

[Fawlty]

Sounds ridiculous to make it a global human right to keep and use mammal-murdering-machines. Maybe we should start with housing and healthcare, and maybe little things like clean water and power. In terms of being a priority for humanity, it should even be vanishingly low on the lists that are radical enough to include it. Though I do advocate for the right of self defense as a basic right in the US, which at this time means gun rights.

 

[Farmer Br0wn]

I enjoy my 2nd amendment right. However, humans are just so stupid that sometimes I question if others can be trusted with the same right.

The "you can't be free because people aren't perfect" argument isn't a valid reason to restrict personal behavior.

That justification can be used for the state to regulate every aspect of life.

 

[Farmer Br0wn]

Maybe we should start with housing and healthcare, and maybe little things like clean water and power.

Fascinating. You should make a thread about it.......

Though I do advocate for the right of self defense as a basic right in the US, which at this time means gun rights.

It's a basic human right recognized by the U.S. Government. What possible justification exists to deny this right to others?

 

[My Spot]

Sounds ridiculous to make it a global human right to keep and use mammal-murdering-machines. Maybe we should start with housing and healthcare, and maybe little things like clean water and power. In terms of being a priority for humanity, it should even be vanishingly low on the lists that are radical enough to include it. Though I do advocate for the right of self defense as a basic right in the US, which at this time means gun rights.

You also said you want to get rid of the second amendment.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I don't know about recognizing it as an international human right, to do so would be to implicate many countries that have stricter gun laws on human rights violations. But many countries in the third world going through political transitions that involve writing a new constitution should definitely consider enshrining it.

 

[Fawlty]

You also said you want to get rid of the second amendment.

Correct. Replace it with a right to self defense.

 

[My Spot]

Correct. Replace it with a right to self defense.

Which entails...?

 

[Billy no mates]

Yes and Americans should kill the shit out of anyone that stands against that right .

 

[Stoic1]

Cubo did a great job baiting many into this thread already.

The issue is centered on the right to self defense. It becomes convoluted when you add in the word "arms".

Most Americans define "arms" as firearms. Some on the extreme believe that they should be able to own a machinegun if they want. However, most Americans are not for the possession and ownership of rocketlaunchers and ballistic missiles. We quickly see how convoluted the issue becomes since here in America we have a lot of differing views on the terminology. Most Americans define "arms" as firearms - pistols, rifles, and shotguns.

The reason I bring this up is when you look at the international perspective they look at "arms" completely differently. The UK is banning knives as the logical progression of their draconian firearms laws. I joke when I talk about them taking away pointy sticks but we really aren't too far off here. In Germany we see local ordinances against knives downtown. These are just a few examples.

So we bring the issue back around and say what can I use to defend myself? In much of Europe it isn't going to be a firearm and probably not a knife. A hammer? A stick? A chair? A lamp? You start to see a slippery slope when we start talking about weapons or tools being used in self defense. So perhaps this really isn't the issue.

If you read Cubo's post, and not the title, he crafted the argument into the right to SELF DEFENSE.

This inevitably turns into an argument against guns. My observation from the opposition (As I understand it) often devolves into the rhetorical stance that guns primary purpose is to kill and should therefore be banned. However a knife, hammer, or golf club's primary purpose is not to kill and it is an apples to oranges argument and therefore silly. We often point out that a car can be used to kill so perhaps you want to ban those too? Again, firearms are meant to kill and cars are not. This then spirals further into the argument that guns make it to "convenient" or easy to kill "lots of people". Let me bring this back around full circle. As an American who remembers the planes crashing into our towers klling 4k I am now sitting in France where a truck was used to kill 84 people recently. That is more than the Las Vegas shooter who used a bump stock.

As an American in Europe I am struck with the paradox of what this all means. Can I use a ballpoint pen to defend myself? How about this lamp? Or does it really even matter what I use to defend myself? Is it even allowed at all?

Do I not have the right to defend myself here in Europe? I cannot honestly say.



Is the right to self-defense inherent? Yes.
Is the right to bear arms integral in that right? Yes because as I argued earlier it really doesn't matter what a citizen uses to defend themselves with - unfortunately the world disagrees.

 

[spamking]

Of course everyone should have the legal right to self defense . . . with firearms or otherwise.

The fun part would be what to do with criminals who have served their time . . . do they get that right back?

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

I enjoy my 2nd amendment right. However, humans are just so stupid that sometimes I question if others can be trusted with the same right. People dont secure their weapons and often leave them laying out in the open loaded. If you are going to have firearms, you damn sure better take proper steps to make sure there are no accidental discharges. No one should be able to walk in and take your weapon, imo.

Great post, in the UK all handguns are completely illegal and even sporting guns are very tightly controlled.
I really like the idea of being able to keep a gun for home defense and definately would if I could but I think overall theres too many people that should not have guns and on balance it's best we do not allow people access to them. I appreciate this means only criminals will have guns as is the case now, but in reality we do not have a big gun problem and I'd rather keep it that way because fuck knows we have enough problems with knives.

In regards to the American reason that you should be allowed to bear arms to overthrow a corrupt government.....come on, your country is so divided there would be no way to establish an appropriate time where 'the people' all come together and decided to overthrow the government by force so that argument is kind of obsolete these days. However I do not think it's possible to ban guns in America, I believe there are simply too many in circulation to ever enforce a ban and it is too ingrained in the culture...It would be like trying to ban brits from drinking or deep frying their dinner

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

Fascinating. You should make a thread about it.......


It's a basic human right recognized by the U.S. Government. What possible justification exists to deny this right to others?

Because most of the rest of the western world, especially Europeans don't want it?

 

[Farmer Br0wn]

Because most of the rest of the western world, especially Europeans don't want it?

Governments not wanting to respect or recognize basic rights isn't a valid reason.

Pointing out that many western governments currently violate this right only proves the need to expand the recognition of this right.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

Governments not wanting to respect or recognize basic rights isn't a valid reason.

Pointing out that many western governments currently violate this right only proves the need to expand the recognition of this right.

I meant the people generally do not want this, I don't think I know a single person, who would support the idea of everyone being allowed firearms.

I appreciate that an American may not understand why because it is such a part of your culture, and I can see why you would not want to change that. Here though, generally we view guns, and weapons as a whole, very differently. I mean if you carry a utility knife in the UK even if the police dont see it people will seriously think that there is something wrong with you and probably will avoid you.