Crime POTWR 2019 Vol 1: Shots Fired! Examining Police Shootings In America

[Cubo de Sangre]

I don’t know about baseball, but I know that the decision to fire that second shot was already made and it was not likely the officer could have changed that decision. Studies have been done in reaction time, which is defined as an officer perceiving or recognizing a threat plus the time involved in their action, in this case, firing those shots. There is simply not enough time to perceive that the suspect had thrown the gun, then decide not to fire that second shot. It’s just not possible, which is why a jury did not convict.

You may be right. Baseball aside, I know what it's like to fire off rounds from a handgun. I'd love to see a study that's measuring decision-making between shots, and not some other unrelated action. Firing that second shot isn't a new decision-making process. It's a continuation of the one you're in. Close to two seconds is not a short interval when popping off rounds.

Now if you're saying that once the first shot is fired then it's decided the trigger is getting pulled until all movement ceases, fair enough. That's more a matter of philosophy than physiology.

 

[nhbbear]

I've been in more pissing matches about that shooting than I care to remember. The guy was told 3x to NOT reach for his waistband, and he did it anyway. Bad shoot? I think so. Especially since the commands given were really shitty and unclear. Worthy of jail time? Nope - because of objective reasonableness and the totality of the circumstances.



No cop is entitled to kill another. If we have to shoot someone it's because we're FORCED to based upon the circumstances. It's not entitlement, it's the result of someone's (usually the bad guy's) very poor decision.

Just to be clear about myself, my town isn't some ridiculous gangland where I see bad shit every single day. Some of the things I have seen though started to catch up with me about year 17-18. Thankfully, the one time I dealt with a dead child, it worked out in the end. I got sent on a newborn non-breather. I got there and the mom was absolutely frantic. I saw the baby was in her arms with his head tilted back and arms hanging- lifeless. I snatched him from her and started to run to my backup's car so we could bring him to the hospital. On my way, I must have jostled the kid the right way and he "woke up" as I got to the car. I was dumbfounded.

Good job with that child. My town has a good share of gang/drug violence. I have been to dozens of shootings. One was particularly bad, where a girl was forced to blow a guy, and at some point, she stopped and was shot through the top of the head. I remember the coroner moving her body, and asked me to help.

Shit caught up with me around year ten or so. When I was shot at, my initial reaction was laughter, telling my partner “holy shit, they’re shooting at us.” The gunman fled, and this was after someone got shit by out of Townes. There was one that got left behind. The entire crowd was chasing this guy, and we were trying to save him. Two officers had detained the shooter who had been released from prison after one year + one day for another shooting. He tried to shoot a girl, but his gun jammed. The officers that had him detained were ordered to release him because the riot had gotten so bad.

Anyway, the crowd going after this guy looked like a pack of wolves going after a deer. They tried taking our guns while we were trying to get the guy into the back of a cruiser for his safety. One officer had his gun removed. I turned and saw a guy holding the gun. I almost shot him, was milliseconds away from that. So glad i did not because he was only trying to return the gun to us. It was the worst, or second worst riot I was ever involved in.

I know I had ptsd after that incident because for the next four days, I would wake up out of a dead sleep with my heart racing and almost throwing up. I went from thinking the incident was so cool and exciting to having serious issues for several days.

This, plus many other incidents have greatly affected me and my career. One officer quit after that incident-I came on and went through the academy with that guy. Another guy I came on with quit after a murder and subsequent riot.

 

[nhbbear]

You may be right. Baseball aside, I know what it's like to fire off rounds from a handgun. I'd love to see a study that's measuring decision-making between shots, and not some other unrelated action. Firing that second shot isn't a new decision-making process. It's a continuation of the one you're in. Close to two seconds is not a short interval when popping off rounds.

Now if you're saying that once the first shot is fired then it's decided the trigger is getting pulled until all movement ceases, fair enough. That's more a matter of philosophy than physiology.

http://www.bluesheepdog.com/reaction-time-police-shooting-study/

https://news.wsu.edu/2014/09/02/deadly-force-lab-finds-racial-disparities-in-shootings/

https://loadoutroom.com/7121/shocking-facts-gun-fights/
https://www.today.com/news/shoot-or-not-shoot-researchers-test-how-police-react-danger-t4961

The second and fourth link discuss how officers take longer to process and react to black suspects than white suspects. This is due to officers overcompensating for the negative reaction to police shootings of black suspects. This is the opposite of what the public believes that officers are quicker to shoot black suspects.

http://www.crimescenejournal.com/content.php?id=0005

This last study is probably the best, along with the first link. This study discusses average reaction time to recognizing a threat and then responding. It also discusses the effects adrenaline have on an officer’s perceptions, including tunnel vision, cognitive response, and the reduction of the senses-such as hearing and knowing how many shots they fired.

This study also discusses the perception of officers in low light situations. I note this for @JamesRussler when we discussed reactions during low light conditions.

 

[sleepwalk]

No, I have never wrecked a police car. Came close with a couple of pursuits where the subject was coming at me on a highway.

If you ever do, I can walk you through that letter. It's... come up before.

 

[nhbbear]

If you ever do, I can walk you through that letter. It's... come up before.

Well, I am on the review board.so I will find myself justified. I will never forget responding to an officer wrecking into another car. The guy in that car was telling us how he was having a very bad day. My partner says “you’re having a bad day? I have to figure out how to make this your fault.” The look on that guy’s face

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

http://www.bluesheepdog.com/reaction-time-police-shooting-study/

I'm not gonna argue with the study. It's funny you picked this article because back in High School some LEO's came in and did a "shoot, don't shoot" with us. I was one of 4-5 kids to take a turn. My scenario was a man in a park with a 12 gauge under his chin. I was the approaching officer trying to talk him down. Gun was in my hand, but I can't recall to what degree it was pointed. The previous demonstrations included a "don't shoot" scenario so I didn't want to be the guy shooting when I shouldn't. As that's going through my head, dude goes to point the shotgun at me and I took him out first.

Stress seems to be the wildcard in all this.

https://news.wsu.edu/2014/09/02/deadly-force-lab-finds-racial-disparities-in-shootings/

Makes sense with the heightened scrutiny that surely all LEO's are aware of.

https://loadoutroom.com/7121/shocking-facts-gun-fights/

Agreed that under these circumstances there's much greater margin for error.

http://www.crimescenejournal.com/content.php?id=0005

Great stuff. The following kinda sums it up.

1. Diminished Sound: 88% did not hear sounds such as gunfire, shouting, or sirens, or the sounds had "an unusual distant, muffled quality."
2. Tunnel Vision: 82% reported that their "vision became intensely focused on the perceived threat" and they lost their peripheral vision.
3. Automatic Pilot: 78% reported responding "automatically to the perceived threat, giving little or no conscious thought" to their actions.
4. Heightened Visual Clarity: 65% reported being able to "see some details or actions with unusually vivid clarity or detail."
5. Slow Motion Time: 63% reported that "events seemed to be taking place in slow motion and seemed to take longer to happen than they really did."
6. Memory Loss for Parts of the Event: 61% reported that, after the event, there were parts of it that they could not remember.
7. Memory Loss for Actions: 60% reported that, after the event, they could not remember some of their own actions.

Seems like the key take-away is that once the shootin' starts it's difficult/unfair to hold people rationally accountable.

 

[VivaRevolution]

Good job with that child. My town has a good share of gang/drug violence. I have been to dozens of shootings. One was particularly bad, where a girl was forced to blow a guy, and at some point, she stopped and was shot through the top of the head. I remember the coroner moving her body, and asked me to help.

Shit caught up with me around year ten or so. When I was shot at, my initial reaction was laughter, telling my partner “holy shit, they’re shooting at us.” The gunman fled, and this was after someone got shit by out of Townes. There was one that got left behind. The entire crowd was chasing this guy, and we were trying to save him. Two officers had detained the shooter who had been released from prison after one year + one day for another shooting. He tried to shoot a girl, but his gun jammed. The officers that had him detained were ordered to release him because the riot had gotten so bad.

Anyway, the crowd going after this guy looked like a pack of wolves going after a deer. They tried taking our guns while we were trying to get the guy into the back of a cruiser for his safety. One officer had his gun removed. I turned and saw a guy holding the gun. I almost shot him, was milliseconds away from that. So glad i did not because he was only trying to return the gun to us. It was the worst, or second worst riot I was ever involved in.

I know I had ptsd after that incident because for the next four days, I would wake up out of a dead sleep with my heart racing and almost throwing up. I went from thinking the incident was so cool and exciting to having serious issues for several days.

This, plus many other incidents have greatly affected me and my career. One officer quit after that incident-I came on and went through the academy with that guy. Another guy I came on with quit after a murder and subsequent riot.

Thinking maybe the media needs to tell more stories like this. Cops aren't the most sympathetic figures.

Hard not to have some empathy reading a story like this.

 

[Jesus H. Sherdog]

Welcome to the thread. Don’t know how we missed you in the original period of posting, because your input would have been welcome.

As I stated in some post, I am also a CIT trained officer, and do community outreach with the homeless and mentally ill. Unfortunately, I am viewed as something as a “hippie” or when some crime involves the homeless, other officers say “look what your people did.”

I am curious as to your ethnicity when working on the islands. If you are a Caucasian male, do you have issues for not being a native Hawaiian, or if you are a native, do you think you would have a different relationship with the people you deal with -an inherent distrust?

As for the ethnicity thing, I’m mixed race but what I’d call “white passing.” I’m pretty well known in my local community, especially the islands of Maui and Molokai, so I don’t run into those problems too often. The only people who give me shit are the rare black guys with the typical KKK bullshit. I tell them I’m Hawaiian/Jewish and they don’t care lol. But no real issues with local people regarding race. Although I did recently have a Hawaiian sovereign tell me I suffered from Stockholm Syndrome lmao.

We have all races in my section though, and the only complaints I’ve gotten regarding race is from some Hawaiian sovereigns who felt a certain officer (who is Latino) was targeting them racially. Sovereign citizens of all kinds are a huge issue out here unfortunately, and this guy does like to target them, but there’s nothing racial about it. They make illegal “Kingdom of Hawaii” license plates they put on their cars they drive around without a registration or license so it’s not like he doesn’t have justification to pull them over.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

As for the ethnicity thing, I’m mixed race but what I’d call “white passing.” I’m pretty well known in my local community, especially the islands of Maui and Molokai, so I don’t run into those problems too often. The only people who give me shit are the rare black guys with the typical KKK bullshit. I tell them I’m Hawaiian/Jewish and they don’t care lol. But no real issues with local people regarding race. Although I did recently have a Hawaiian sovereign tell me I suffered from Stockholm Syndrome lmao.

We have all races in my section though, and the only complaints I’ve gotten regarding race is from some Hawaiian sovereigns who felt a certain officer (who is Latino) was targeting them racially. Sovereign citizens of all kinds are a huge issue out here unfortunately, and this guy does like to target them, but there’s nothing racial about it. They make illegal “Kingdom of Hawaii” license plates they put on their cars they drive around without a registration or license so it’s not like he doesn’t have justification to pull them over.

Hawaii has low rates of violent crime. To what degree are you concerned with encountering gun violence during a public encounter or interdiction?

 

[Limbo Pete]

Sovereign citizens of all kinds are a huge issue out here unfortunately

My deepest sympathies
For real, that's gotta be a monster pain in the ass

 

[Jesus H. Sherdog]

Hawaii has low rates of violent crime. To what degree are you concerned with encountering gun violence during a public encounter or interdiction?

During routine interactions with the public? Not very, but I tend to know who to be more cautious around. During any arrest or pursuit you have to be cautious. Statistics are great but I’d prefer not to become one. Just a couple weeks ago we had this right where I take my son swimming: https://www.khon2.com/news/local-ne...f-deadly-officer-involved-shooting/1674172018

And of course when I was serving high risk warrants I had countless encounters with felons armed with firearms and other violent offenders. I also almost got deliberately hit with a car by the guy’s wife once at one lmao. So of course there’s also violence besides gun violence you need to be cautious of. During each and every warrant service I would remain highly alert and cautious.

 

[JamesRussler]

If you are referring to a recent(3 years ago) in the fourth circuit(east coast) where officers are not permitted to use lethal, or even less lethal force, against a subject that only presents a threat to themselves. Imo, this ruling takes options away from the officers. Saying you can’t tase a person to prevent them from killing themselves is directly against the officer’s job of preserving life. That ruling has been challenged, but nothing has come out of it yet.

This case is in the Ninth. I forget the name (I think it was “Drummond,” or something like that). IIRC it just says that when officers are aware that a subject/suspect is mentally ill, officers must take it into account. It doesn’t require any particular course of action, just that officers act reasonably in light of that particular circumstance. In other words, officers can’t ignore the mental illness factor. I think it’s fair, especially given that the law has no teeth.

 

[JamesRussler]

We have been posting such long reaponses(which imo is a great thing).

Imo, totality of the circumstances is not a magic statement, but based upon Graham v Connor and TN v Garner, the officer can not be subject to information that comes out after the fact. In the Clark case, the fact that it was a cellphone and not a gun, is relevant because the officers were responding to a felony, in which the subject was fleeing. This is one of the Graham factors. The subject was actively fleeing from officers, and ignored the multiple commands to surrender. The subject, cornered at this time, then proceeds towards officers with the cellphone in hand. One officer believed this to be a gun, which given the circumstances- a subject Ignoring commands and advancing towards officers, presents a threat. He was also observed to have a “tool” or whatever they called it, in the chopper video, which was thermal. The chopper officers were able to see things that the officers on the ground could not see.

Now, where we obviously disagree, is in a poorly lighted scene, the cellphone was perceived as a gun. Maybe in daylight, the officers would not have shot because the fact that it was a cellphone would have been more obvious. Based on the Graham factors, I believe that a reasonable officer, would have perceived a threat. They cannot be judged on 20/20 hindsight, just like information not available to the officers, such as Clark’s violent past, can not be taken into account. But his violent crime on the evening, which was perceived as a possible burglary, while armed with a blunt instrument, was a threat. Also, he was at a house, and cornered. The officers could have perceived that the subject, being cornered, may then break into that house and be a threat to the public. The fact that it was grandmas house is irrelevant.

I’d be more inclined to find the shooting reasonable if cell phones weren’t so pervasive. Just about everyone has a cell phone, and they can be found holding it at any given moment of the day.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

During routine interactions with the public? Not very, but I tend to know who to be more cautious around. During any arrest or pursuit you have to be cautious. Statistics are great but I’d prefer not to become one. Just a couple weeks ago we had this right where I take my son swimming: https://www.khon2.com/news/local-ne...f-deadly-officer-involved-shooting/1674172018

And of course when I was serving high risk warrants I had countless encounters with felons armed with firearms and other violent offenders. I also almost got deliberately hit with a car by the guy’s wife once at one lmao. So of course there’s also violence besides gun violence you need to be cautious of. During each and every warrant service I would remain highly alert and cautious.

Sounds like high alert at most times and that makes sense.

Makes me wonder, what in your day do you look forward to?

 

[Islam Imamate]

I am not the biggest fan of the implicit bias argument, but I always try to keep myself in check. I have a pretty good reputation for treating people fairly, but there are many that simply see the uniform and judge me based on that, in similar fashion to officers just seeing race, like you stated. It happens, we both know that, but the best I can do is to see beyond race, and judge the subject based upon their actions. It would be unfair to ignore the area where these incidents occur. If an officer has an encounter in some rural area where few violent crimes occur, I would find it unreasonable for officers to automatically perceive a threat, but in areas where there is lots of violence, an officer can’t separate the fact that some areas are much more violent than other areas.

Does any of this make sense to you? I do understand that many black males see the police as a threat and enemies. The only way we get past this is to see each other for actual people(behind the badge and skin color) and create some positive interactions and build a relationship with each other. Community policing is one way to do this, and I think many departments have adopted this style of policing. But there are simply some in the community that will never even want to build that relationship.

I can't find much to disagree with here but as far the the bold part specifically, I would nonetheless like to reiterate that from my POV the onus is on the cops to change the dynamic as the public servants, not the citizenry.

 

[Higus]

To @A.C. but also @Cubo de Sangre
As a LEO, what are your thoughts about Hawaii's firearm laws? Are they a factor in low violent crime rates in the state?

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

To @A.C. but also @Cubo de Sangre
As a LEO, what are your thoughts about Hawaii's firearm laws? Are they a factor in low violent crime rates in the state?

From my experience living on Big Island for almost ten years, I don't believe they're much of a factor. Pretty sure it's mainly just the culture. The extra restrictions aren't that significant when it comes to crime prevention. There's a 10 round limit to handgun magazines, but that's hardly going to stop a shooting. There's a two week wait to get a handgun because that's how long the permitting process takes. With long guns if you have your permit (good for a year) then you can take immediate possession. Maybe that stops a few? Hard to know. Lastly, there's a registry. Not sure how much good it does, especially when the dudes around here I talk to about guns all seem to have unregistered firearms. One guy even has a full-auto Sten.

 

[Jesus H. Sherdog]

Sounds like high alert at most times and that makes sense.

Makes me wonder, what in your day do you look forward to?

There is lots of satisfaction to be earned on the job, whenever you help someone or take a genuinely dangerous person out of the community. I remember one time I told you that story when I saved that guy's life who had been cut in his femoral artery by his fighting chicken lol. Stuff like that is very gratifying, even if the person you're helping is very flawed. And it makes for a funny story.

To @A.C. but also @Cubo de Sangre
As a LEO, what are your thoughts about Hawaii's firearm laws? Are they a factor in low violent crime rates in the state?

I think there's so many factors that play into it. But I think the greatest factors are the culture and then of course the fact that we live on the most isolated populated island chain on Earth. That would seemingly make it much harder for illegal guns to get here, but on the other hand it hasn't really stopped the drug smuggling.

Hawaii actually has one of the highest legal gun ownership rates in the country, tenth in the nation, ahead of states like Texas, Tennessee, Kentucky, Nevada, etc. But people are more likely to use their guns for hunting or target practice than to commit crimes with. Alaska I believe has the highest gun ownership rate and you will probably find lower than average violent crime there as well.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

But I think the greatest factors are the culture and then of course the fact that we live on the most isolated populated island chain on Earth. That would seemingly make it much harder for illegal guns to get here,...

I brought dozens of firearms when moving here. Both via USPS and on the flight. Nobody at TSA is checking anything in regards to legality. Then there's the growing popularity of 80% lowers. I'm thinking of building a Glock soon. All the parts will be delivered to my PO Box.

 

[Higus]

From my experience living on Big Island for almost ten years, I don't believe they're much of a factor. Pretty sure it's mainly just the culture. The extra restrictions aren't that significant when it comes to crime prevention. There's a 10 round limit to handgun magazines, but that's hardly going to stop a shooting. There's a two week wait to get a handgun because that's how long the permitting process takes. With long guns if you have your permit (good for a year) then you can take immediate possession. Maybe that stops a few? Hard to know. Lastly, there's a registry. Not sure how much good it does, especially when the dudes around here I talk to about guns all seem to have unregistered firearms. One guy even has a full-auto Sten.

Out of curiosity, do you think the laws mostly reasonable?

I think there's so many factors that play into it. But I think the greatest factors are the culture and then of course the fact that we live on the most isolated populated island chain on Earth. That would seemingly make it much harder for illegal guns to get here, but on the other hand it hasn't really stopped the drug smuggling.

Hawaii actually has one of the highest legal gun ownership rates in the country, tenth in the nation, ahead of states like Texas, Tennessee, Kentucky, Nevada, etc. But people are more likely to use their guns for hunting or target practice than to commit crimes with. Alaska I believe has the highest gun ownership rate and you will probably find lower than average violent crime there as well.

Cubo and I discussed this in the past, which is why I've tagged him on the question. FWIW, I grew up in Hawaii.
Hawaii is an interesting case that perhaps can't be extrapolated to other states. Compared the the rest of the country, they have restrictive laws, but also high ownership rates. The isolation effect on illegal guns cannot be understated. I hope we get to have civil conversations about gun laws more in future POTWR threads.

When people say "culture", what do they mean as it pertains to Hawaii? Income inequality, for instance, could be a part of culture, but so could racial demographics.