Potential Issue With Privatized Prisons....

[Lord Coke]

This is already happening in Africa with the drugs that are not ready for human testing in the states

 

[panamaican]

Or if it doesn't work and their pay drops enough, they just close their doors. Then we're back to what lead to them opening in the first place.

You mean we're back to government run prisons. It's not like we don't know how to build or run prisons without the private sector.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

If private prisons were penalized for recidivism, they would have an incentive to actually find ways to help their inmates break the gang dynamic prior to release.

Or incentive to increase the lengths of stay.

 

[panamaican]

Or incentive to increase the lengths of stay.

Sure but it's still less criminals on the streets in their gangs...which is what I think his goal includes.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Sure but it's still less criminals on the streets in their gangs...which is what I think his goal includes.

Ending the drug war seems more in line with American values than fining an entity for the independent actions of an individual. The result would be less crime, criminals, and violence.

 

[panamaican]

Ending the drug war seems more in line with American values than fining an entity for the independent actions of an individual. The result would be less crime, criminals, and violence.

Drug related crimes make up less than 25% of inmates, less depending on which specific state and if it's a federal vs. state prison (higher percentage in federal). While not an insignificant amount of people, they're really not a big part of our prison population problem.

We've been down this road, I don't see drug crimes as a special unicorn in our criminal justice system.

 

[cincymma79]

You mean we're back to government run prisons. It's not like we don't know how to build or run prisons without the private sector.

They cost more and don't work any better,which is why the private ones came around in the first place

 

[cincymma79]

Drug related crimes make up less than 25% of inmates, less depending on which specific state and if it's a federal vs. state prison (higher percentage in federal). While not an insignificant amount of people, they're really not a big part of our prison population problem.

We've been down this road, I don't see drug crimes as a special unicorn in our criminal justice system.

25 percent of millions of people at twenty grand (that's extremely conservative)....is enoigh money that if you don't want it I'll take it every year and start my own country

 

[panamaican]

They cost more and don't work any better,which is why the private ones came around in the first place

I'm not sure how any of this runs contrary to my primary point. We have private prisons. Therefore we are paying the private sector to perform a task. Since we are paying them, we can place conditions upon them and back it up with the power of the purse.

If they don't like it, we go back to what we've been doing. If they succeed, we're all better off.

But I'd bet you money that any company currently running a private prison is not in a position to shift into an alternate line of work so long as the financial conditions leave them with a profit margin. They won't like it...or they'll find a way to get it done.

 

[panamaican]

25 percent of millions of people at twenty grand (that's extremely conservative)....is enoigh money that if you don't want it I'll take it every year and start my own country

Or 75% of millions people at twenty grand is 3x the money you're getting for your part. In fact, a 50% reduction in my 75% still out gains your entire 25%. Shit, I need lower reductions in my 75% all the way around to beat your group. 5 million people fewer is 20% of your population but less than 7% of mine. I'd bet that it's easier for me to cut my prison population by 7% than for you to cut yours by 20%.

I guess this is my way of saying I don't know what you're driving at. Drug offenders are often repeat offenders and the issue is one of recidivism.

 

[Rational Poster]

So I've always been against there being privatized prisons, because I believe it puts a monetary incentive behind encouraging repeat offenders as opposed to rehabilitating prisoners so that they can have tools to function in society and ideally NOT return to prison.

That being said, I had this thought just a moment ago...

What if (Enter Name) Pharmaceutical company gets into the privatized prison business. Maybe not with the pharma name though, perhaps under a "Small start up company" name, for the purpose of using the prison population to experiment their new cutting edge drugs without anyone knowing? It would be a very sneaky way to test the side-effects on a human population, hypothetically.

Anti-depressants, Sleep aids, Anti-psychotics, mood stabilizers...etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case at some facilities, or something along the same lines.

Does anyone have an example of this actually happening? I hope not, but maybe there is...

So you literally just made some shit up with no evidence or anything and decided to make a thread about it?

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Drug related crimes make up less than 25% of inmates, less depending on which specific state and if it's a federal vs. state prison (higher percentage in federal). While not an insignificant amount of people, they're really not a big part of our prison population problem.

So we could get rid of 25% of the inmates and accomplish what you're hoping for them (i.e. not having their lives ruined by the system), but that's not good enough? What numbers drop are you guaranteeing with fining prisons? Not labeling people criminals to begin with makes less sense to you than imprisoning them so they can be properly "reeducated" by the system?

What group is a bigger part of our prison population problem that can be fixed if only prisons were investing more in their futures? You wanting to continue to incarcerate people for personal choices flies in the face of the view that we should do more to rehabilitate criminals whose crimes caused direct harm to others. Not sure why you'd even care about the issue with this attitude.

 

[Big_Chief_Stove]

So you literally just made some shit up with no evidence or anything and decided to make a thread about it?

this thread is exploring the possibility of something similar happening.

 

[panamaican]

So we could get rid of 25% of the inmates and accomplish what you're hoping for them (i.e. not having their lives ruined by the system), but that's not good enough? What numbers drop are you guaranteeing with fining prisons? Not labeling people criminals to begin with makes less sense to you than imprisoning them so they can be properly "reeducated" by the system?

What group is a bigger part of our prison population problem that can be fixed if only prisons were investing more in their futures? You wanting to continue to incarcerate people for personal choices flies in the face of the view that we should do more to rehabilitate criminals whose crimes caused direct harm to others. Not sure why you'd even care about the issue with this attitude.

We could get rid of all prisoners, would that be good enough? We could eliminate our entire prison population by simply not criminalizing anything. Listen, I understand that you see drug crimes as different from other types of crime. I don't. I see them the same way I see stolen cars or arson or white collar fraud or any myriad number of crimes, including the violent ones.

So I don't see any reason to treat those criminals any different from anyone else that breaks the law. You want to reduce drug offender convictions...convince people not to break drug related laws.

Short of that, I'll continue my focus on the prison population in it's entirety.

And rehabilitating people after they've been convicted of a crime doesn't fly in the face of incarcerating people for personal choices. It punishes people for personal choices and then attempts to reduce the chances that they'll make those choices a 2nd time. This matters because we already make it difficult for people with a felony to re-enter society and don't do anything to offset that.

I don't know why you don't want all criminals treated similarly.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

We could get rid of all prisoners, would that be good enough? We could eliminate our entire prison population by simply not criminalizing anything. Listen, I understand that you see drug crimes as different from other types of crime. I don't. I see them the same way I see stolen cars or arson or white collar fraud or any myriad number of crimes, including the violent ones.

So I don't see any reason to treat those criminals any different from anyone else that breaks the law. You want to reduce drug offender convictions...convince people not to break drug related laws.

Short of that, I'll continue my focus on the prison population in it's entirety.

And rehabilitating people after they've been convicted of a crime doesn't fly in the face of incarcerating people for personal choices. It punishes people for personal choices and then attempts to reduce the chances that they'll make those choices a 2nd time. This matters because we already make it difficult for people with a felony to re-enter society and don't do anything to offset that.

I don't know why you don't want all criminals treated similarly.

You sound irrational if you're viewing marijuana usage the same as violent crime. I suppose as a lawyer you've never met a law you didn't like.

Nothing of substance to support this notion that fining the institutions for recidivism will significantly (>25%) reduce the prison population? Was there some other big idea I missed?

 

[panamaican]

You sound irrational if you're viewing marijuana usage the same as violent crime. I suppose as a lawyer you've never met a law you didn't like.

Nothing of substance to support this notion that fining the institutions for recidivism will significantly (>25%) reduce the prison population? Was there some other big idea I missed?

I sound irrational because I see breaking the law as breaking the law without carve outs for special unicorns? But your bias is showing again. I said drug crimes, you're just talking about marijuana above.

Your 2nd paragraph is all sorts of misconceptions. I said I think it would be a great idea to penalize private prisons for convicts that were re-arrested after release. I said it's a great idea because it would lead private prisons to try very hard to reduce recidivism. They would try hard to reduce recidivism, not that it's proven that they would succeed.

I then said it's a win-win for the taxpayer. If they succeeded, we get less recidivism and could apply it to public prisons. If they didn't succeed we'd end up paying them less for the prison services.

But all of that is irrelevant because I don't want to cut marijuana users a break when they violate the law? Here's something you'll enjoy reading so you can complain about grave injustices dealt to mj users, aka God's favorite drug customers: https://www.rt.com/viral/356085-study-marijuana-poor-uneducated/

"Consumption is highly concentrated among the smaller number of daily and near-daily users, and they tend to be less educated, less affluent, and less in control of their use,” he noted.

 

[Rational Poster]

this thread is exploring the possibility of something similar happening.

Something with no historical precedent, yeah?

That's called making shit up

 

[Dober4]

They already did this with mkultra

 

[no fat chicks]

I know a guy who during his college days would goto this insane asylum and check out women for the weekend. Mostly chicks who where in there cause their parents caught them smoking a joint or something.

One of his college buddies worked there and would get him in. He'd pretend to be a relative and wander around checking out the chicks till he found one that would go for it. He check her out for the weekend, they'd get drunk, and he'd try to hump, then bring'em back.

He said it was a good time!

That's the most disturbing thing I've read on here in a while

 

[Big_Chief_Stove]

Something with no historical precedent, yeah?

That's called making shit up

Sure, but you're saying it as though it's been misrepresented as an actual happening. This is a hypothetical thread and it was presented as such.

And there is plenty historical precedent for organizations drugging people without their knowledge in the US, I just don't know of a case taking place in a prison. It just seems like an ideal place for a case to come about of. You disagree?