Positioning and what makes an "Iron Chin"?

[Emites]

Based on something Sinister said:

Everyone CAN be knocked out. Just some people are almost impossible to be put in position to be knocked.

I do not disagree with the notion that positioning affects punch resistance.

However, at what point do physical features become the deciding factor in absorbing the force of a blow?

What allowed a guy like Brandon Rios to eat punches like this and smile?

Julio Cesar Chavez to eat this and not even buckle:

Or Erik Morales withstanding this:

Surely it comes down to the skull structure of the fighter? Something that no one can control?

 

[fluffball]

As far as I know, no one has ever done much research on the physical abilities of certain people to withstand blows to the head. Testing it wouldn't get past the board of ethics, so you're stuck with observing the chaos of a boxing match and have no ability to eliminate variables.

In addition, I've never gotten a 100% definitive answer from doctors as to why we lose consciousness in the first place. Obviously your brain gets damaged from banging off your skull, but that doesn't fully explain why you black out. What EXACTLY is going on when you get hit? For that matter, why you can cause someone to black out from nothing but pain alone? What do some people drop from getting shot while others will wade through a hail of bullets until their body mechanically is unable to function anymore? Weird stuff that we can't really test.

We do know the head moving too much is bad, so neck muscles can presumably help.

 

[Ignoramus]

Take those guys to HW and see how their chins hold up.

Edit: Rios only ate one of those punches, Chavez Sr, who probably has p4p one of the best chins, ate a punch from Pernell who has pillow hands, and Morales looks like he would've been dropped if it weren't for the ropes he held on to.

 

[Emites]

Take those guys to HW and see how their chins hold up.

Chavez's head is about the same size as Cain Velasquez's:

 

[Ignoramus]

Yeah, rumor has it that Chavez Sr. has an abnormally thick cranium, which may or may not have contributed to his beard. But my point is that everyone gets knocked out if the punch is hard enough.

It just happens that bigger guys have higher KO rates, so the question of chininess at the lower weight classes might not have to do with the structural component of resisting knockouts, but just simply mental toughness.

 

[Ignoramus]

In regards to the notion that position prevents some fighters from ever being knocked out, I personally believe that some fighters stylistically can't be knocked out.

Floyd comes to mind not because he seldomly gets hit, but because he seldomly trades punches, which will oftentimes result in a fighter getting "caught" mid combo.

He chooses to pot shot rather than exchange hard blows.

Fighters like that are virtually impossible to catch with a knockout shot.

 

[thugpoet]

Based on something Sinister said:


I do not disagree with the notion that positioning affects punch resistance.

However, at what point do physical features become the deciding factor in absorbing the force of a blow?

What allowed a guy like Brandon Rios to eat punches like this and smile?

Julio Cesar Chavez to eat this and not even buckle:

Or Erik Morales withstanding this:

Surely it comes down to the skull structure of the fighter? Something that no one can control?

I am gonna be honest, this stuff doesn't interest me...

I rather not know how hard I can get hit before I can get knocked out

 

[Ignoramus]

^ This.

Not getting hit > having a great chin.

Although I suspect that the top defensive boxers had great chins themselves.

 

[Sinister]

What makes an iron chin is many factors, not the least of which are also determination and focus. Each of the men you listed had/have iron chins, but it's not as if Chavez and Morales have never been hurt or knocked down, or stopped in a bout. Both of them were stopped in bouts where their determination, for once, didn't overpower the beatings they were taking. The sizes and thickness of their skulls at that point didn't matter.

Some things you can control, like determination and yes, positioning.

Some things you can't control, like your physiological make-up.

Bit from column A and bit from column B.

 

[Fight Gone Bad]

not getting hit. slipping punches. not leaving yourself open for counter shots and Sara McMann are all things I'd take before having an iron chin

 

[Odysseus721]

No fighter has an "ironchin", any fighter can be knocked out. Not a matter of "if", but rather "when" it will happen in their career.

 

[Pugilistic]

I think conditioning plays a part as well. I don't think Timothy Bradley would have been standing against Provodnikov if he wasn't as conditioned as he is.

 

[Emites]

Floyd comes to mind not because he seldomly gets hit, but because he seldomly trades punches, which will oftentimes result in a fighter getting "caught" mid combo.

Even the best get hit hard at some point; to be a great, it seems you have to have a solid chin.

Floyd has one; he got hit hard by Shane Mosley and didn't even go down:

What makes an iron chin is many factors, not the least of which are also determination and focus. Each of the men you listed had/have iron chins, but it's not as if Chavez and Morales have never been hurt or knocked down, or stopped in a bout. Both of them were stopped in bouts where their determination, for once, didn't overpower the beatings they were taking. The sizes and thickness of their skulls at that point didn't matter.

True, Chavez and Morales were technically stopped: but were they ever put out? I mean something like this:

How was Erik still conscious after being hit by this?

I feel like you can only be as determined as your body allows.

 

[Sinister]

No fighter has an "ironchin", any fighter can be knocked out. Not a matter of "if", but rather "when" it will happen in their career.

Unfortunately for this comment, there have been many fighters on the World llevel who faced big punchers and were never knocked out, some never off their feet, and even fewer never actually hurt.

 

[Sinister]

True, Chavez and Morales were technically stopped: but were they ever put out? I mean something like this:

How was Erik still conscious after being hit by this?

I feel like you can only be as determined as your body allows.

Why does it have to be one extreme or the other? Chavez and Morales were not knocked cross-eyed for an entire few minutes, but they were both significantly hurt and even beaten to quitting. Randall had Chavez in bad trouble. And that shot that dropped Morales, he wasn't unconscious but it should be obvious that he was NOT okay, and not in control of his faculties.

Determination is an intangible, you don't qualify it by trying to attach it to a tangible, like conditioning. Acelino Freitas was always in good condition, never stopped him from quitting. He was a guy who could give, but not take. Guys who have the kind of determination like Chavez, Morales, even Bradley, they're special. Before age gets them or something shakes their confidence they'd rather die than submit. Conditioning may supplement that, but its not the same thing. The difference between the two is the bout between Deigo Corrales and Freitas. Corrales didnt have much of a chin, but he was incredibly difficult to finish off for similar reasons.

 

[fightingrabbit]

Positioning probably has a ton to do with how well you take a punch. That and experience. Skull size maybe, but you're not going to be getting any scientific research funded to find that out definitively anytime soon.

One thing i saw many instances of (imo i would even call it a phenomenon) throughout my time of watching combat sports, was how alot of MMA fighters get hit by punches that seem like they couldn't hurt a fly, yet they get knocked on queer street, or display some super exaggerated effects from the contact. In my head i'd be thinking what the hell was that? How could that have possibly hurt him.

Examples being Brock and his barrel rolls, and Kimbo walking into an outstretched arm and dropping like a sack of potatoes. I'm sure i can come up with a hundred more examples of this if i just browsed through some cage fights.

My theories to explain this phenomena of 'MMA chin' is as mentioned.. Shitty positioning to the point where they're taking the full brunt of every shot. The second being wrestlers/grapplers are not used to being struck, so they flip out whenever something flies towards their face or when anything with any semblance of a punch makes contact with them. Likely a combination of both.

You see it in a boxing gym, too. When a green guy who's sparring for his very first or second time gets hit, he'll get hit, and it'll look like Joe Frazier himself got him with a left hook the way his head will violently twist or snap back from a mediocre punch. It totally disorients them. Then eventually as they get more experience and better positioning, it doesn't happen as often, or to a lesser degree.

 

[Babba]

Positioning probably has a ton to do with how well you take a punch. That and experience. Skull size maybe, but you're not going to be getting any scientific research funded to find that out definitively anytime soon.

One thing i saw many instances of (imo i would even call it a phenomenon) throughout my time of watching combat sports, was how alot of MMA fighters get hit by punches that seem like they couldn't hurt a fly, yet they get knocked on queer street, or display some super exaggerated effects from the contact. In my head i'd be thinking what the hell was that? How could that have possibly hurt him.

Examples being Brock and his barrel rolls, and Kimbo walking into an outstretched arm and dropping like a sack of potatoes. I'm sure i can come up with a hundred more examples of this if i just browsed through some cage fights.

My theories to explain this phenomena of 'MMA chin' is as mentioned.. Shitty positioning to the point where they're taking the full brunt of every shot. The second being wrestlers/grapplers are not used to being struck, so they flip out whenever something flies towards their face or when anything with any semblance of a punch makes contact with them. Likely a combination of both.

You see it in a boxing gym, too. When a green guy who's sparring for his very first or second time gets hit, he'll get hit, and it'll look like Joe Frazier himself got him with a left hook the way his head will violently twist or snap back from a mediocre punch. It totally disorients them. Then eventually as they get more experience and better positioning, it doesn't happen as often, or to a lesser degree.

lol, funny post. it's also true what u said about the newbies, it s like looking at someone trying basic floor exercises in gymnastics for the first time. their bodies go full retard

 

[fluffball]

One time I had a coach comment that my sparring partner and I looked like the old time-y English engravings or comics where our heads where cocked back at like a 70 degree angle because we kept knocking each other silly and didn't know how to keep our chins tucked. That ain't good for your brain, for sure!

Sort of like this but without the chins tucked so much.

Edit: Also funny, I used this comic to illustrate the newbs getting hit comment, but it actually shows some really solid head positions.

 

[PointyShinyBurn]

Positioning probably has a ton to do with how well you take a punch. That and experience. Skull size maybe, but you're not going to be getting any scientific research funded to find that out definitively anytime soon.

One thing i saw many instances of (imo i would even call it a phenomenon) throughout my time of watching combat sports, was how alot of MMA fighters get hit by punches that seem like they couldn't hurt a fly, yet they get knocked on queer street, or display some super exaggerated effects from the contact. In my head i'd be thinking what the hell was that? How could that have possibly hurt him.

Examples being Brock and his barrel rolls, and Kimbo walking into an outstretched arm and dropping like a sack of potatoes. I'm sure i can come up with a hundred more examples of this if i just browsed through some cage fights.

My theories to explain this phenomena of 'MMA chin' is as mentioned.. Shitty positioning to the point where they're taking the full brunt of every shot. The second being wrestlers/grapplers are not used to being struck, so they flip out whenever something flies towards their face or when anything with any semblance of a punch makes contact with them. Likely a combination of both.

You see it in a boxing gym, too. When a green guy who's sparring for his very first or second time gets hit, he'll get hit, and it'll look like Joe Frazier himself got him with a left hook the way his head will violently twist or snap back from a mediocre punch. It totally disorients them. Then eventually as they get more experience and better positioning, it doesn't happen as often, or to a lesser degree.

Ever been hit with a four ounce glove?

 

[Charlitos1988]

One time I had a coach comment that my sparring partner and I looked like the old time-y English engravings or comics where our heads where cocked back at like a 70 degree angle because we kept knocking each other silly and didn't know how to keep our chins tucked. That ain't good for your brain, for sure!

Sort of like this but without the chins tucked so much.

Edit: Also funny, I used this comic to illustrate the newbs getting hit comment, but it actually shows some really solid head positions.

well Machida stands really tall and chin up, he was KO'ed only once.