Position Before Submission?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Gavin LeFever, Dec 23, 2005.

  1. position before submisson. what does it mean? it seems like such a simple rule that there is no need to explain it, but not explaining it leaves me a little confused.

    jui jitsu is about position before submission, but why fall back with an armbar or leglock or guard? it seems to me that would be going for submission over keeping your position. i use these holds, but wonder if this clashes with the rule of position before submission.

    miss your sub and you're in an inferior position. maybe then these submission attempts are imperfect if you're competeing at the highest level and there is something better, yet to be discovered in grappling.

    then again, no movement is perfect movement. if you watch olympic wrestling or abu dhabi grappling it's boring to mundane vewiers because the matches are slow, inch by inch leaving the least possible room for mistakes.

    food for thought, just stop thinking if your nose, eyes, or ears start bleeding.
     
  2. flyingknee16

    flyingknee16 Brown Belt

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    the mantra means you must secure your position before attempting a submission. any botched submission can land you in a bad position, but with this mantra in mind, it is supposed to be less risky...

    in other grappling arts like catch as catch can or submission wrestling, the mantra is submission over position ... they are about getting a submission from any position, even if it means risking losing that position.
     
  3. but then in either case, in going for a submission you still risk losing your position, just a different road to the same place.

    im wondering if the submissions that compromise position should be avoided in all and just keeping the ones that include submission *and* position, though there are fewer techniques for that.
     
  4. blanko

    blanko Guest

    no it means before you attempt a submission get into a position that they can't really strike or submit you.
     
  5. Kawlinz

    Kawlinz How do I change my Custom User Title?

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    You can be submitted in any position, and from any position, especially true with the gi.
     
  6. E C Monee

    E C Monee Guest

    Position -> Transition -> Submission
     
  7. DMcKayBJJ

    DMcKayBJJ Blue Belt

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    Remember that in sport jiu-jitsu, you will certainly rack up points by continually attaining superior position over your opponent but not necessarily by going for a submission that fails.

    In non-sport jiu-jitsu (i.e. no points, no time limits), attaining superior position can help you wear down your opponent so as to make a submission attempt more likely to be successful later on in the fight.

    Hence, the axiom.
     
  8. Col. Angus

    Col. Angus Brown Belt

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    Proper position will make teh soobmission so obvious that you almost have to take it. Position gives you the submission.
     
  9. Nate Pringle

    Nate Pringle Yellow Belt

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    protection - position - submission

    if you work your game in this order often you will find that as you progress from an inferior position to a more dominant one, (while protecting of course) your opponent will attempt to resist and get out of the inferior position. Often when they do they leave themselves open for submissions that are easier to pull off for you if you are in a dominant position. For example. When moving from side mount to knee on belly, opponents will often counter by trying to push the knee off their stomach with one of their hands - this is a perfect setup for an armbar -wait for them to commit their weight to the push off then spin for the armbar while keeping the knee on them until the last minute - protecting and keeping position until you spin for the submission.
     
  10. IMP

    IMP OBLIVION RECORDER

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    Means that rather than going for a 1:1000 submission rather take his back and such...
     
  11. krellik

    krellik Gimli son of Cisco

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    movement- possition- controll- submission you guys buy that order of things?


    The mantra simply mean that you dont throw yourself into submissions before you have secured a stable platform to perform them from.
     
  12. fozzit

    fozzit Guapo Mestiso

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    catch wrestlers believe in submission over position and that is why matt furey is god..
     
  13. Dedicado

    Dedicado Machetero

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    My coach trains with Laimon, he has been on the position band-wagon for a long time. Basically he hates putting his back on the matt, if he has to give up a position to get a sub he won't do it. It is good reasoning, in MMA or on the street the guy in the mount has so many things he can do, the guy on his back is in danger every second he is down there. That's why so many guard players have been losing decs to the ln'p, with the exception of Horn's victory the guy using the guard typically loses, even if he is really active.
     
  14. Hamit Aktas

    Hamit Aktas Amateur Fighter

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    It means that it's more important to get a good position before going for a submission. That's why you see some people in fighting let a submission go just to keep the position they have.
     
  15. sambosteve

    sambosteve Purple Belt

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    I've always interpreted "position" to mean "control". You to have control established before you can aquire the submission. I avoid the word "position" (though I like the rhyme) because of it's conotations to sport - ie, points for positions without concern for submission. In my mind, how much control is a non-issue. It is individualized - enough to control your opponent so you can acquire the sub. For some it may be a quick riskier period of control for some it may be longer more established control. In essense, I feel it simply means "Don't rush into things".
     
  16. scorcho

    scorcho Brown Belt

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    I train vale tudo at a mainly standup school, where all people want to do is punch, but they forget to maintain position. When I fight them, I can always sweep them and then work my methodical game from the top.

    Position before submission.
     
  17. sha

    sha Geekjitsu Black Belt

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    Don't forget another of jiu jitsu's mantra, "go with the flow" (um, I mean, "flow with the go"). I think at a high level, position and submission just become one in the flow of rolling (it sounds like something Diego might say, I know..).

    An example: you get reversed, but while getting reversed you lock a triangle. You lost position but submitted the guy. Position before submission is good, but I think once you're very experienced, you can reach a level where you're in control and you can submit no matter what your position is.
     
  18. IMP

    IMP OBLIVION RECORDER

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    Also Position means the Set-Up?
    Like dont do sloppy armbars without your knees squeezing together etc?
     
  19. Mark Limbaga

    Mark Limbaga Amateur Fighter

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    Learn how to decure monuts, tighten your guard and learn proper setting up before worrying about teh submission. Even if you know all submissions, if you can't set them up properly, you won't be able to pull them off
     
  20. daigoro

    daigoro I'll see you in heII!!!

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    I think the idea behind PBS is to get n00bs away from over-aggressively attacking and out of a a wholly submission oriented mindset. The sub is the flashy, sexy finishing technique. Its the grapplers KO or Homerun. Guard passes, sweeps, and positional control simply dont have the allure of the sub. How often have you seen newb grappler in class going for the sub like a spazz/madman? And how often do they actually get it? Usually they just end up gassing and getting subbed themselves. A more seasoned grappler knows that a submission is usually the end result of a sequence of techniques that has maximized their advantages.
     

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