Elections (Poll) GOP Now Has Largest Advantage On Security/Prosperity since 2015

In short, I'll just say that I don't share your optimism about a third party changing the landscape all that much. Especially when the right people at the right time, who could actually do it and make a splash, refuse to do so.

At least in an immediate sense. A third party may arise sometime in the future, but it would take longer than our lifespans for them to even begin to find their footing.

Oh I'm definitely not optimistic about it happening. We're probably stuck with a two party system forever, and it may lead to our decline as a country. It probably already has. I'm not speaking from practicality, but rather the necessity of better options. You're right though, we'll almost certainly never see a viable third party candidate in our lifetimes.

Thanks for the discussion!
 
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Stop asking for options and start creating them.

No. I'm not a politician nor do I want to be. I'm asking for more than two corrupt, bought and sold options to lead the most powerful country in the world. That is not an unreasonable request, and people shouldn't have to become politicians just because the system is broken. That's like telling generationally poor people from the ghetto to start their own businesses because the economic system has failed them. How about we just demand a system that works?

No one will know about random 3rd party candidate because it costs money to get attention, unless you have large amount of local support.

And there's the problem. You need giant amounts of money to be viable on a national stage. Where do you think this money comes from? And who do you think these politicians are beholden to? And then you're going to tell me that we don't need a third party because we can just demand that our politicians do better?

People want the quick fix. They don't want to build a 3rd party from the ground up, creating local support for issues across multiple states. They just want people to accept some random, no name dude because of what? Even the 2 major parties know that they can't trot out no names and win elections.

The Republicans trotted out Trump and the Democrats trotted out Joe Biden. Two of the least popular presidents in history. An orange real estate fraud and a senile, doddering fool. They both won. Obama was basically a no name before he rose to fame, and he ended up being, by far, the best of the last three presidents.

This is what I'm talking about when I say it won't matter because no one wants to do the work. Here, you will not even acknowledge that work has to be done to build a viable 3rd party.

When did I say that? Of course work would have to be done. I'm not speaking from practicality here. IMO the two-party system is already too corrupt and too powerful for anything to ever really change. It's going to continue to get worse, even more money will funnel into politics, legislation/spending bills will become increasingly more business friendly/harmful to people, and there's not much we can do about it. I'm speaking from necessity. If it doesn't change, then we're going to get more of the same, and likely worse. I don't see it changing, I'm just expressing how I feel about it. We would be much better off with no parties at all, but that will never happen.

Where do you think national level politicians come from? They come from local politics.

They start out at party meetings, then they run for small elections, they build a donor list and show that they have local support. After they show some small success then, and only then, does the national party reach down and start giving them the national push.

If you will not build up the type of local politicians that you can support, you will not have any politicians that you like at the national level.

That's true whether it's the 2 major parties or a 3rd party.

Many of them are put into office by special interest organizations, and then they are used as mouthpieces for that organization's agenda. I mentioned the NFIB in the last post. A lot of this is a scam. These organizations fund a political campaign to get said politician into office. The organization accrues members who pay monthly fees to the organization. The members vote on certain issues and inform the organization how they would like the politician to vote. Then the politician must vote a certain way or refuse future support from the organization and ruin their political career. I worked for an organization that did this, and there are dozens more.

Politicians need money, find a backer, and then speak as their mouthpiece. Only the independently wealthy can afford to run and actually vote their conscious. The political system (at least nationally) is broken on every level.

Donor money and lobbying organizations and business interests don't pick the people. The party gives them the people based on their success at the local level.

Yes, they often do. I've seen it happen. It works like this.
1. Politician gains some support on local level
2. Politician gets financial backing from large special interest group to fund a much larger campaign for a higher position
3. Politician wins, and is beholden to special interest group and their donors
4. Politician either votes how special interest group demands, or risks losing backing money and will be demonized by the group that got them into office.

They know where their votes are coming from at that point, so it's wisest to take orders from the special interest group, who gets their matching orders from their donor base.

But I'll step past some of this and get to the deep meat -- why do you think that none of the 60+ current 3rd parties in the U.S. have succeeded? With 60+ 3rd parties, we don't lack for nuance.

None of them have the money, power, or influence of the DNC and GOP. It's really that simple. They are massive institutions deeply imbedded in politics for the last 100+ years. That's like asking why a mom and pop retail store can't compete with Walmart. "See! There are so many options! And people still shop at Walmart!".

It's fine that you're willing to work within that system, but be honest that this is the system you are working within.
 
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Do you not understand that other countries have different (superior) voting systems?


Let's make up a scenario.

The year is 2000 and there is an election between a guy called Bush and another called Gore

Purely hypothetical example.

Lets say I prefer Gore to be the president over Bush.
But what I really want is a third party candidate, let's just make up a name for him/her. I'll call this imaginary person Ralph Nader.

Now with the first past the post voting system I understand that if I vote for this imaginary Ralph Nader fellow and he doesn't get in what in essence what I have done is actually just subtracted my vote from Gore.

Instead of voting between the two major candidates i vote for the person I think would best represent me with this Ralph Nader fellow.

Only he doesn't get in. Maybe he doesn't have enough support, maybe because no one with a brain is willing to vote third party because they know that all they're doing is relinquishing their say between the two candidates from the major party.

Let's just say it was real close in my area. So close that they have to do a recount.

Let's say this hypothetical Bush fellow wins in part because me and other people like me voted for our preferred candidate Ralph and not for the Gore fellow.

Now let's say this hypothetical bush fellow hypothetically invades two countries resulting trillions of dollars spent on the MIC and millions of people dead. Great, i'm now complicit with a mass murdering piece of shit just because I decided to be principled and vote third party.




Now lets try it again with a different voting system. A system where I number people according to my preference for them to be leader.
1 Nader
2 Gore
3 Bush
4 person x
5 person y
6 person z


If my vote for 1 doesn't result in that person winning the seat then my vote is shifted to who i voted in at number 2, aka my second preference.

I'm unlucky that my first preference doesn't win but my vote goes to the second person. The Gore fellow, who wins because my vote WASN'T thrown in the garbage after voting for an unsuccessful candidate.


Which system do you think hamstrings third party candidates?
Which system do you think results in more people voting third party?
Which system do you think...



Results in a self fulfilling prophecy?

This.

Exactly this.

I remember my dad telling me a while back that I don't get to have a say in politics if I don't vote for one of two shitty candidates. I asked him "didn't you vote for Bush twice?"

...

"Yes"

...

So that means you had a say in the wars and I didn't. You're an asshole, and I'm indifferent. Fix your fucking system and maybe I'll vote.
 
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ah, so this is how all these patriot act bullshit laws are sold.
for your protection and prosperity.
 
I think that makes sense. The Democrats messaging is very much about social issues. The GOP is also talking about social issues but they frame those issues in the context of international security, sovereignty and economic opportunity.

To illustrate the difference - look at something like immigration, legal and illegal. The Dems will say diversity strengthens the nation, open arms, nation of immigrants, etc. The GOP will say illegal immigration affects borders and border security. That immigration affects job opportunities and the pay scale.

Same issue, very different framework. The GOP messaging is consistently about something people can understand - security and jobs. The Dems messaging is consistently about something that's hard to define and internalize.

“Law and Order”
 
Who the eff are the 39% that prefer the pro crime open border party on security, and the 41% who prefer the party forcing people out of work, creating a labor shortage and skyrocketing inflation on prosperity?
 
None of them have the money, power, or influence of the DNC and GOP. It's really that simple. They are massive institutions deeply imbedded in politics for the last 100+ years. That's like asking why a mom and pop retail store can't compete with Walmart. "See! There are so many options! And people still shop at Walmart!".

It's fine that you're willing to work within that system, but be honest that this is the system you are working within.

Or we can be honest and admit that there are plenty of 3rd parties to vote for and most of you still choose to vote Dem or GOP instead.
 
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