Poll (By Request) -- Better Legacy: Shogun or Machida?

He won the first round against Jones and was beating shogun in their second fight before getting dropped. Getting finished isn't the same as getting dominated; Shogun has been thrashed from start to finish numerous times in his career.

Machida doesn't have the durability to get thrashed like Shogun did(very few fighters do). Jones vs Machida round 1 is a draw, you can't get any closer really. Machida was a hair ahead of Shogun but he really couldn't do much, he got a takedown or two but didn't hit him much at all, couldn't keep him down and then got out countered.
 
I'm a huge Machida fan, but come on, that fight was three and a half minutes. the "he was winning until he lost" argument is lame enough as it is without being used on fights that didn't get out of the first round. Try to have a little objectivity man!

I'm just pointing out that he didn't appear outclassed in that fight.
 
Machida's had a more impressive UFC career, so I guess it depends on how much credibility you think PRIDE had as a promotion. My answer is Machida, clearly.
 
Machida doesn't have the durability to get thrashed like Shogun did(very few fighters do). Jones vs Machida round 1 is a draw, you can't get any closer really. Machida was a hair ahead of Shogun but he really couldn't do much, he got a takedown or two but didn't hit him much at all, couldn't keep him down and then got out countered.

I think that's debatable. He got beaten up pretty badly in the Weidman fight, and yet hung around and was at his most aggressive after having sustained a lot of damage.
 
I'm just pointing out that he didn't appear outclassed in that fight.

I don't think Machida has ever been outclassed. Not even by Jones. But Shogun came in with bad knees and a strategy to end the fight early and pulled it off. Much like JDS did with Cain. And kudos to Shogun for doing that. It was a gamble, but he waited for it, slipped that straight left and landed a beautiful counter. There was no luck involved (not that you suggested that, just pointing out that is was skill, not luck).

I think Machida is clearly the better fighter today and has the better UFC record. However, taking PRIDE into account I think Shogun has more of a legacy. He was ranked #1 in the world for longer and on two separate occasions.
 
I think that's debatable. He got beaten up pretty badly in the Weidman fight, and yet hung around and was at his most aggressive after having sustained a lot of damage.

I don't think there is much to suggest that Machida can take that type of damage, I think he's the only guy that got rocked by a punch from Jones. His chin isn't bad by any means but he's most likely incapable of taking the damage that Shogun did against Hendo in the first fight and the Jones fight without being KOed(there's only a handful of guys that have chins that good).
 
I don't think Machida has ever been outclassed. Not even by Jones. But Shogun came in with bad knees and a strategy to end the fight early and pulled it off. Much like JDS did with Cain. And kudos to Shogun for doing that. It was a gamble, but he waited for it, slipped that straight left and landed a beautiful counter. There was no luck involved (not that you suggested that, just pointing out that is was skill, not luck).

I think Machida is clearly the better fighter today and has the better UFC record. However, taking PRIDE into account I think Shogun has more of a legacy. He was ranked #1 in the world for longer and on two separate occasions.

I agree completely. As great as Shogun's run was, he also fell off hard and fast. Comparing two fighters with great legacies, this was the deciding factor in my eyes. Time may still change that, but for now I put Machida barely ahead.
 
I don't think there is much to suggest that Machida can take that type of damage, I think he's the only guy that got rocked by a punch from Jones. His chin isn't bad by any means but he's most likely incapable of taking the damage that Shogun did against Hendo in the first fight and the Jones fight without being KOed(there's only a handful of guys that have chins that good).

There are very few fighters that can sustain the sort of damage that Shogun can, and that accounts for some of his uglier performance but not all of them (Sonnen, Griffin I).
 
Shogun for a long time was my favorite fighter; he was the one who got me into MMA. His Pride GP run was legendary.

However, his career has been inconsistent. He's been plagued by injuries and it seems like his lack of serious training prevented him from really performing at his potential often. He also has some very embarrassing losses, like his first round submission loss to Chael Sonnen and his recent first round TKO loss to OSP. In both fights, Shogun got off zero offense and his opponents were not that great - though they had the presence of mind and strategy to capitalize on some of Shogun's boneheaded errors.

Also, Shogun has steadily been on the decline since UFC 113. That last injury really took a toll on him and he's never been the same. His footwork, movement, and growing lack of diversity in his game demonstrate that he's progressively on the downslide. In short, Shogun in the past few years is but a shell of the fighter he once was. Yes, the ring and Pride rules favored his style more than the cage setting/UFC rules, but he still showed so much more promise. He still has accomplished much, arguably moreso than Machida in actual titles (and beating Machida when Machida was an undefeated champion who had not yet lost a round at that time).

Machida's legacy is great because he's still performing at the top level. He was undefeated, never having lost a round in his MMA career, when he took the title from the then-undefeated Rashad Evans in a flawless victory. Machida has had many more flawless victories, especially in recent years. He's also still right in his groove. Unlike Shogun, Machida's never had a boneheaded loss with amateur mistakes. Rather, Machida's losses were either pretty close or a function of the scoring system.

Machida's loss to Shogun at 113 was legit. While Machida was winning that fight, the durable Shogun found a way to knock him out.

Machida's loss to Rampage was questionable - he "lost the contest" in the sense that he didn't do much in the first 2 rounds, but neither did Rampage. Machida was the one to hurt Rampage the most and get closest to the kill. Rampage "won" on perceived octagon control for the majority of the contest, even though it's pretty clear that he lost the "fight." Given the current scoring system, however, one can see how Machida lost, though a victory for Rampage seems generous.

Machida's loss to Jones was legit. Machida, a natural MW, fought a huge guy in Jones. Jones adapted well, though it's quite clear that, just like Vitor before his own fight with Jones, Machida was not well physically. But you run what you run, regardless of your condition, and he was well enough not to cancel the fight. A legitimate loss, but I think Machida could have a better showing the second time around.

Machida's loss to Phil Davis was a WTF. Not sure how the judges gave it to Phil on that one. They seriously need to rethink "octagon control."

Machida's loss to Weidman was legit. Yes the weight cut may have been tough, but he still put up a good showing against the still-undefeated champ. I think Machida wins the second time around at Weidman though.
 
Machida's truly lost three times. He recently ended a fight taking 0 strikes from a journeyman.

Meanwhile, Shogun got KO'd hard by an even lower ranked fighter.
 
Machida is still winning and can get a title shot again. Shogun is done unfortunately.
 
There are very few fighters that can sustain the sort of damage that Shogun can, and that accounts for some of his uglier performance but not all of them (Sonnen, Griffin I).

He was injured before the Griffin fight so his cardio wasn't there and he was winning till he gassed. I'm not using it as an excuse as Shogun took the fight but there is an obvious reason he didn't do well in that fight. The Sonnen fight was just a huge brainfart, Sonnen can't have them all, I guess.
 
Machida's truly lost three times. He recently ended a fight taking 0 strikes from a journeyman.

Meanwhile, Shogun got KO'd hard by an even lower ranked fighter.

True - Machida's legit losses are to true beasts, and I honestly think he could have a very good chance of beating them the next time they meet.

When Machida meets a journeyman, e.g. Dolloway or Munoz, he destroys them and takes 0 damage whatsoever. He also makes it a masterful performance in which he's essentially untouched.

When Shogun meets a journeyman, it's a toss-up. See Vera...that should not've been a war, Shogun should've obliterated Vera with ease. See Chael and OSP fights, in which Shogun mounted 0 offense but got quickly finished. I can't believe that he got TKO'd by OSP while doing nothing more than 1 leg-kick. I think OSP will fade into obscurity in 2 fights' time and it'll be a stain on Shogun's record, very much like the Chael fight (even though Chael became a high-profile name through his Anderson fights). To lose to OSP by 1st round TKO is pretty shameful...I wish it didn't happen.
 
Shogun was more of a 'fighter' than Machida, Machida is a sniper/tactician. Machida has been in only a couple hard fought scraps in the UFC, Shogun I and the Weidman fight. Machida style favours longevity, Shoguns does not.
 
Shogun but its close, Pride GP + UFC championship. He was also ranked #1 for a longer period of time even when he didn't have a belt. If Machida was able to take the MW belt it would have been him though.
 
Never gave it a thought before. Initially I wanted to say Shogun because of everything he did in pride. But steroid suspicion taints the legacy. Can crushing hurts the legacy. And having a lack luster tail end to his career hurts his legacy.


Machida on the other hand has remained at the top of his class and continues to improve. As of right now, neither one of their careers are over so it's hard to give a fair comparison of legacies. But when they both retire, I think Machida's legacy will outshine Shogun's pretty easily.


Shogun's legacy is a brief steroid fueled run in Pride. Amazing run, but his career as a whole is not legendary. At this point, I feel like his career will be defined by how much he's fallen off.
 
Never gave it a thought before. Initially I wanted to say Shogun because of everything he did in pride. But steroid suspicion taints the legacy. Can crushing hurts the legacy. And having a lack luster tail end to his career hurts his legacy.


Machida on the other hand has remained at the top of his class and continues to improve. As of right now, neither one of their careers are over so it's hard to give a fair comparison of legacies. But when they both retire, I think Machida's legacy will outshine Shogun's pretty easily.


Shogun's legacy is a brief steroid fueled run in Pride. Amazing run, but his career as a whole is not legendary. At this point, I feel like his career will be defined by how much he's fallen off.

Fighter bashing. Why are you accusing Shogun of doing steroids and acting like that is the reason for his decline when we know he had like 4 knee surgeries?
 
He was injured before the Griffin fight so his cardio wasn't there and he was winning till he gassed. I'm not using it as an excuse as Shogun took the fight but there is an obvious reason he didn't do well in that fight. The Sonnen fight was just a huge brainfart, Sonnen can't have them all, I guess.

He wasn't winning.

http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/UFC-76-Knockout-PlaybyPlay-9169

Forrest was injured, but the Shogun cult never mentions that. He needed shoulder surgery after the fight.
 
I think Shogun peaked higher, but his past 10 or so fights really hurt him. Machida just gave the guy who smashed Anderson twice a great fight. If these trends continue, I think Machida will be looked at much more favorably in the future than Shogun. I voted close, but Machida.
 
He wasn't winning.

http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/UFC-76-Knockout-PlaybyPlay-9169

Forrest was injured, but the Shogun cult never mentions that. He needed shoulder surgery after the fight.

Forrest was injured but his injury didn't prevent him from training his cardio.

I had Shogun winning the first round and was ahead the first minute or so of round 2 then Forrest took over as Shogun gassed.

I haven't watched the fight in a long time, i'm 100% aware that Forrest had a minor injury but I didn't mention it because it doesn't compare to a blown out knee.
 
Back
Top