Poliquin... *shakes fist*

[B3rserk3R]

^^ Joking aside you have a better chance of winning the lottery than T-Nation mentioning any supplements at all that aren't Biotest (unless it's negative) anymore. They used to give props to good supplements that didn't compete with theirs, but these days it seems if it isn't Biotest, it doesn't exist. Not that there's anything wrong with their products, but you know what I'm saying...

 

[Vedic]

Well Poliquin has been off of his rocker for a while now. Granted I like some of his endocrine levels theories and ways of measuring it.

However when it comes to OHS. They are in EVERY SINGLE one of my clients routines. Whether they are fighters of climbers. Do I think it replaces the bac squat, or front squat? No, but in some applications to climbers and that group when the weight training is minimal there are weeks where we do OHS but not bac or front.

Eza made a good point. P is almost to the point of size and strength over all else. Joint mobility, agility, etc is often over looked, hence a lot of his former trainees getting injured when they leave him.

Just like anyone else, he says some good things, but most are rubbish.

 

[Green Monkey]

Boys, why would you read an article on BodyBuilding and then bitch about it in a strength and power context.

Perfect form equals extremely low risk of injury, and research groups in Sweden and Switzerland have clearly demonstrated this in various studies. At the PICP (Poliquin International Certification Program) at level 3, we use it extensively in the prehab/rehab module.
Why does it suck for size gains? Because hypertrophy comes from the product of time under tension times load. It's got to be heavy enough and last long enough. That doesn't happen with the overhead squat.

One - He says they use it extensively.

Two - He says it sucks for "size gains". Is that what any of us is working for? Then just ignore that answer - easy as that.

T-Nat is fine if you read it with a jaundiced eye - you have to filter out every bit of BBing info to get to the stuff you need.

Everything he says is probably right in the context he is working under.

The shit about everyone stopping doing it is obviously bullshit because the interviewer asked a question about it being a fad, which means people are doing it.

He isn't training athletes, he is training BBers - it's like asking a vet to perform heart surgery on a human, maybe they can do it, maybe they can't; but it would make a lot more sense to ask a heart surgeon.

 

[bacon]

Green monkey seems to be using some sort of rational thinking. I've heard about this...

 

[Green Monkey]

Scary huh?

 

[TR14]

It surprises me that Charles loves to preach the benefits of a snatch grip deadlift- on a platform, no less- for maximal strength gains yet dismisses the OHS as only an indicator lift. It seems to me, this is a fair comparison. The strength carryover from OHS is damn good IMHO.

The article is exactly what to expect from Charles' t-nation articles- little is useful, but the "online reaction" is hilarious.

I don't understand why people get so worked up over anything CP says- the general perception of Charles throughout the S&C community, in general, is pretty much comparable to the view towards Charles here at the Sherdog forums.

CP has clearly made a move into the "executive athlete" realm with his BioSig analyses and Poliquin Performance Centers and it's paying off.

I swear he writes articles, solely, to get a rise out of people. He's getting the job done, evidently.

 

[Vedic]

Boys, why would you read an article on BodyBuilding and then bitch about it in a strength and power context.



One - He says they use it extensively.

Two - He says it sucks for "size gains". Is that what any of us is working for? Then just ignore that answer - easy as that.

T-Nat is fine if you read it with a jaundiced eye - you have to filter out every bit of BBing info to get to the stuff you need.

Everything he says is probably right in the context he is working under.

The shit about everyone stopping doing it is obviously bullshit because the interviewer asked a question about it being a fad, which means people are doing it.

He isn't training athletes, he is training BBers - it's like asking a vet to perform heart surgery on a human, maybe they can do it, maybe they can't; but it would make a lot more sense to ask a heart surgeon.

Ummmm he trains athletes. David Boston, Edgar martinez, Olympic athletes. That is the point.

 

[Green Monkey]

Ummmm he trains athletes. David Boston, Edgar martinez, Olympic athletes. That is the point.

context is still the same for this question - Is the OHP good for size/hypertrophy?

No.

Interviewer didn't ask about strength.

CP didn't answer regarding strength.

 

[takeahnase]

context is still the same for this question - Is the OHP good for size/hypertrophy?

No.

Interviewer didn't ask about strength.

CP didn't answer regarding strength.

First, the questions was about OHS. Second, while a part of the question refers to hypertrophy, Poliquin then goes on to cite olympic lifters not doing OHS as evidence of the fact that the OHS is overrated for "training" purposes, which is bullshit on two accounts. First, some olympic lifters still do heavy overhead squats, in particular squat jerkers. Second, olympic lifters are typically not interested in hypertrophy, so I don't see why their choice of exercises should have much of a bearing on what bodybuilders do. Most olympic lifters don't do one-handed dumbbell curls and one-handed pushdowns either.

 

[takeahnase]

I would also like to add that if olympic lifters don't do OHS, this is mainly because they can easily OHS what they snatch and there would be little benefit of OHSing more than that. I'm not entirely whether Poliquin's athletes can overhead squat 160kg.

 

[Keith Wassung]

context is still the same for this question - Is the OHP good for size/hypertrophy?

No.

Interviewer didn't ask about strength.

CP didn't answer regarding strength.

I think you are looking at it the wrong way, Is the OHS good for size/hypertrophy? ABSOLUTELY, if not directly than indirectly, That is like asking is drinking water good for hypertrophy, well....if that is all you did, then no,....but when you train for BB and you drink plenty of water, its going to make a PROFOUND difference if you drank little or no water.

Roger Benjamin, who was a world record DL holder and owner of the Lincoln Health Club where I grew up used to get asked by bb'ers all the time about what to do to grow a certain bodypart, for example they would say, Roger, how can I get my chest to grown and he would say, you have to eat chicken breasts because its the same type of meat,,lower body, chicken things, arms, wings, lats--babyback ribs or backs of chicken,,,,,he was just messing wit them, but they believed it and actually tried to eat that way. The human body does not know what bodypart you ar trying to feed, it feeds the whole system.

Will doing barbell rows help your max squat? ABSOLUTELY.....just not directly. As DJ says, the OHS makes your body into "once piece" ie, it ties is all together

Historically, the best bodybuilders in the world, achieved their foundational build by doing heavy, basic work, ie, they tried to get stronger,,,look at the list of Mr. Olympias, with 1-2 exception they were ALL known for their strength and being stronger then their peers.

When you use strength training to build a foundation, you get a much more solid look and I find you tend to hold the muscle development a lot longer than if you tried to "pump" your way to fitness. I cant tell you how many times I have bb'ers who avoided heavy work and avoided squats, deads, etc and they got their build though a lot of isolation work and pumping, they achieved the look, but if something happened, say an injury or an illness where they could not train for a few months, they would literally lose most of their gains,,,the guy who trains heavy (be it a bb'er or otherwise) stops training and can hold the development for a very, long time, I have seen this so many times in 30 years of lifting.

 

[Barut]

I'm pretty good at OHS, so they must be awesome. Anyone who doesn't think that OHS's are awesome is a racist.

 

[Green Monkey]

First, the questions was about OHS. Second, while a part of the question refers to hypertrophy, Poliquin then goes on to cite olympic lifters not doing OHS as evidence of the fact that the OHS is overrated for "training" purposes, which is bullshit on two accounts. First, some olympic lifters still do heavy overhead squats, in particular squat jerkers. Second, olympic lifters are typically not interested in hypertrophy, so I don't see why their choice of exercises should have much of a bearing on what bodybuilders do. Most olympic lifters don't do one-handed dumbbell curls and one-handed pushdowns either.

Missed the OHP vs OHS - my hands have minds of their own.

Didn't say that the answer made any sense. He dragged in a bunch of stuff that didn't pertain to the actual question.

So, it's a bad answer to a question that's not pertinent here.

 

[Barut]

Missed the OHP vs OHS - my hands have minds of their own.

Didn't say that the answer made any sense. He dragged in a bunch of stuff that didn't pertain to the actual question.

So, it's a bad answer to a question that's not pertinent here.

Racist.

 

[Green Monkey]

I think you are looking at it the wrong way, Is the OHS good for size/hypertrophy? ABSOLUTELY, if not directly than indirectly, That is like asking is drinking water good for hypertrophy, well....if that is all you did, then no,....but when you train for BB and you drink plenty of water, its going to make a PROFOUND difference if you drank little or no water.

Roger Benjamin, who was a world record DL holder and owner of the Lincoln Health Club where I grew up used to get asked by bb'ers all the time about what to do to grow a certain bodypart, for example they would say, Roger, how can I get my chest to grown and he would say, you have to eat chicken breasts because its the same type of meat,,lower body, chicken things, arms, wings, lats--babyback ribs or backs of chicken,,,,,he was just messing wit them, but they believed it and actually tried to eat that way. The human body does not know what bodypart you ar trying to feed, it feeds the whole system.

Will doing barbell rows help your max squat? ABSOLUTELY.....just not directly. As DJ says, the OHS makes your body into "once piece" ie, it ties is all together

Historically, the best bodybuilders in the world, achieved their foundational build by doing heavy, basic work, ie, they tried to get stronger,,,look at the list of Mr. Olympias, with 1-2 exception they were ALL known for their strength and being stronger then their peers.

When you use strength training to build a foundation, you get a much more solid look and I find you tend to hold the muscle development a lot longer than if you tried to "pump" your way to fitness. I cant tell you how many times I have bb'ers who avoided heavy work and avoided squats, deads, etc and they got their build though a lot of isolation work and pumping, they achieved the look, but if something happened, say an injury or an illness where they could not train for a few months, they would literally lose most of their gains,,,the guy who trains heavy (be it a bb'er or otherwise) stops training and can hold the development for a very, long time, I have seen this so many times in 30 years of lifting.

Not arguing with you, just pointing out that people are getting all up in arms about a question that doesn't have much to do with our purpose here.

Based on your point, I could say that walking into the gym leads to hypertrophic growth.

Sure, it's part of the whole deal, but the question was "Q: The overhead squat: good exercise or fad movement of the moment? And is it good for hypertrophy?" and that means, is the movement itself good for hypertrophy and the answer is no. There are better movements for hypertrophic growth - done.

His other crap is pretty gratuitous and self-serving.

I think it's a dumb answer. I like the movement and the challenge it presents - I just don't get why people want to spend so much time raking a guy over the coals because he says their favorite movement isn't any good at achieving a goal that they're not trying to achieve.

 

[Red_Demon]

I discovered the OHS late in life, probably 6-7 years ago from Danny. Its an incredible move, and its not that it takes the place of of full squat, but completely augments it-same with front squat, deadlift, clean, etc. It is definitely on my short list of all around most effective exercise. I squatted 730 as a drug free 220lber, now I retired fairly early in life, (mid-20's) and I say without hesitation, that if I had used the OHS back then, I would have hit 800 ( within the same time frame) its that good of a move, as Danny says "ite makes you into one piece"

Sorry CP, disa on this one

Keith

Keith why did you retire so early?

 

[Keith Wassung]

Keith why did you retire so early?

Training and competing had reached a point where it was no longer fun...and having fun (even when its painful and uncomfortable) is very important to me. I was in my mid 20's and was getting my career and education going, and just wanted to focus on some new things..I feel like I would have won a world championship ( drug free lifting) in another 4-5 years and might have been competitive at the world open level, but I said to myself, what then? My biggest single lifting regret is that I did not focus more on olympic lifting, which in restrospect, is what I feel I was born to do ( from a lifting/athletic standpoint) I had strong legs, was fast ( sprint type fast) had explosive leg power and had decent upper body overhead strength, and I never lost an Olympic meet,,I really should have given that my all and I do regret it. I used to see a lot of middle-aged gymrats running around town, guys in their 40's that have been training forever, still competing in local contests, collecting trophies with very little else going on in their lives.

I made a career switch about two years ago, and I have done very well with it,,,,but its not fun and I am moving on to something else very soon. Again, fun not being defined as goof off type fun, but the kind of thing where you cant wait to wake up in the morning and do it....

I still enjoy lifting but I also enjoy helping people and I get enough feedback from folks on this board and in e-mails that lets me know that I am able to help a little bit. It is kind of funny, but I have gone out to the garage to workout, and in the corner of the gym I have a desk, and I will set up my laptop for the stopwatch program and to listen to the music. I was all warmed up and ready to go when someone PM'd me on this site asking for advice, I took 10 minutes to answer and they asked something else, etc, etc and before you know it, my entire workout time was gone. I picked up my gym bag and my pitcher of ice water and walked into the house and Peggie (wife) says "hey baby, how was the workout"? and I replied "fantastic"

KW

 

[enright3060]

Based on your point, I could say that walking into the gym leads to hypertrophic growth.

Yes - you could, but it would be a very, very bad argument and presupposes a laughable idea of causation.

This is a good thread, btw.

 

[BlastBeats]

Keith = awesome
OHS = awesome

end.
of.
thread.

 

[Green Monkey]

Yes - you could, but it would be a very, very bad argument and presupposes a laughable idea of causation.

This is a good thread, btw.

That was the point.