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Police brutality/excessive force

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by s karlyle, Jan 9, 2015.

  1. s karlyle الجسر

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    Lmao it's hard for to do this sometimes... Simply put..
     
  2. Toothless King Brown Belt

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    Its "Shoot to stop" by putting a couple rounds in the chest.

    I can't wait for the "shoot him in the legs/arms" crowd to speak their mind.
     
  3. s karlyle الجسر

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    No it's shoot to kill..
     
  4. Toothless King Brown Belt

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    Yeah, fuck you are right. I stopped following the trial after 2012. I thought for sure at least 2 of those cops were going to get convicted murder or manslaughter
     
  5. 7437 Banned Banned

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    Because they were obviously guilty. Police are not subject to the law though.
     
  6. Horse Style Gold Belt

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    They shoot to stop the threat. Why is this so hard to understand?

    If someone is a threat to the officer or others, that person needs to be stopped.
     
  7. 7437 Banned Banned

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    and people who arent a threat that they are mistaken about? lots of those if you assume everyone is armed and therefore a threat to the officer.
     
  8. Horse Style Gold Belt

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    That's why you comply with the officer so you're not perceived as a threat. Let me guess. You think complying with an officer is being a slave to the man or something, right? If he stops you, he doesn't know what you have on you, he doesn't know your state of mind and he doesn't know your intentions.

    It takes a second for a seemingly calm situation to turn deadly if someone indeed was armed and willing to attack. It's important for the officer to make sure nothing dangerous is going to happen which is why he'll ask you to comply with certain instructions until his business with you is over.

    Of course, there are times officers do sloppy jobs or abuse their power. Does it happen as often as the average person thinks? I don't think so. I've seen many videos where people scream police brutality or abuse when the officer is doing standard shit.

    Saying shit like "oh he was unarmed" after the fact is incredibly stupid because

    1. The officer doesn't know beforehand and obviously won't take chances with his life
    2. Being unarmed doesn't mean non-threat
     
  9. 7437 Banned Banned

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    i certainly agree that being unarmed doesnt make someone not a threat. the assumption that everyone is armed, and therefore much more of a threat, is what i take issue with.

    I would be more inclined to believe that the abuses of power and violation of people's rights were less common if the judicaial system was not set up so that they were accountable to anyone. At the moment they really are not, and it shows from their behavior.

    Being suspected of a crime should not instantly mean that you have no rigths and it is ok to beat the hell out of someone. Not instantly complying shouldnt carry death sentence. We shouldnt be striving to have Judge Dredd out there.
     
  10. nhbbear Duty Belt

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    What you, and many others on the internet, youtube, sherdog, facebook seem to not understand is that "excessive force" is a label applied that is often either a misnomer, or completely incorrect. Excessive force and that force being a criminal act has a very wide margin.

    For example, as an officer, I may arrest a subject that attempts to pull away from me, I have a few options. Pulling away would be considered "defensive resistance." The correct response for defensive resistance would be soft empty hand control, hard empty hand control, or intermediate weapons in some cases.

    Verbal directions.

    Soft empty hand control would be joint locks, take-downs, pressure points.

    Hard empty hand control would be knee strikes, punches(to the brachial plexus tie-in between the shoulder and chest), kicks, and brachial stuns to the brachial plexus origin, or the side of the neck.

    Intermediate control is baton strikes, pepper spray, taser, and in some departments-unilateral vascular neck restraint or shoulder pin restraint(side chokes/head and arm).

    Deadly force in the form of baton strikes to the head, punches to the head(may be intermediate for some departments), groin strikes would not be acceptable.

    Lethal force-firearm/knife are definitely not acceptable.

    So using that guideline, let's say the guy pulls his arm away from me while I am trying to handcuff.

    The above options would depend on several factors, most notably the crime the suspect is being arrested/suspected for/of, the size of the officer/offender, number of officers/suspects present, prior knowledge of the offender(is he known to be dangerous), is the subject high or intoxicated, age of the suspect/sex of the suspect, terrain(on a slippery slope, ice, gravel), and maybe one or two other factors.

    Now, using the above criteria, let's say the subject is wanted for shoplifting, is of average build, no known history of violence-and at this point he is simply trying to pull his arm away while trying to say the officer has the wrong person. I would say that verbal directives, plus a joint lock up to a take down would likely be acceptable-but the officer would still be within limits to strike at this point. So let's say the officer, upon feeling the resistance of the suspect, delivers a strike to the subject's face.

    In my department, I would consider that excessive force, but it would not be a criminal act unless there was some intent to commit a crime. Of course the officer would try and argue that he did not know the subject, he was resisting arrest, it was unknown if he was armed, etc. That's fine and all, but the officer still used too much force for what the situation calls for.

    I would say the arrested subject has a good shot at a lawshuit(sherdog sic) and the officer should be reprimanded and possibly need some retraining. If the officer has a history of such things, or continues to use more force than is justified, further disciplinary action up to termination may be in order.

    If all that seems confusing, it is. Every situation is unique and almost never a black/white situation. It is not as simple as "Did this person break the law" in this scenario the shoplifter broke the law when he did not pay for items he concealed. It does not get any simpler than that. For the cop, it is not so simple.

    The supreme court has recognized that law enforcement is not an easy job. There are more dangerous jobs out there, and there are more stressful jobs out there-but few can match the danger and the stress level that law enforcement brings to the table. For this reason, when the supreme court is asked to weigh on whether a civil rights violation was committed and an officer used excessive force, they will use several factors to weigh this decision. Chiefly, the crime committed, what information the officer had available to them, and were the actions of the officer reasonable? That last bit is to be judged by what a "reasonable" officer would do.

    The supreme court gives officers a good bit of leeway, provided their actions are reasonable and without apparent malice. The supreme court is who the lower courts take the cues from.

    So, you see-the issue is not simple and is very subjective.

    And since it is brought up, The Kelly Thomas case still makes me sick. That was excessive force, and I believe voluntary manslaughter. That one fuck says "see these gloves, they're my ass-kicking gloves" or something to that affect. How that statement coupled with that man's injuries did not lead to a conviction-but reasonable doubt can be a bitch.
     
  11. kpt018 Gold Belt

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    The interesting thing to me is how sides are taken, and they seem to follow political leanings. Conservatives tend to support cops even in cases of clear brutality and liberals do not (and support things like requiring cops to wear cameras).

    To me, the reasonable position is to oppose police brutality and to also oppose violence against police. Seeing so many pick a side makes zero sense to me.

    There's clearly and issue though. And I'm surprised that so many conservatives are cool with a police state.
     
  12. Muay o Muay Purple Belt

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    29 x more likely to be killed by a cop than a terrorist supposedly in the US!
     
  13. RedRocket44 Brown Belt

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    This is mainly what I take issue with as well.

    [YT]1yEQDBSt58w[/YT]

    Direct result of this cop being told everyone is a potential threat.

    I get why it's become that way, nutjobs like the guy who went Rambo on Kyle Dinkheller and so many other regular traffic stops that have gone sideways, but now it seems like we are living in a world where if an officer can't see your hands for a split second, or you sneeze they are justified in shooting you.
     
  14. klnOmega Banned Banned

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    We need cameras on every officer, and all recordings should be made available to the public upon request.

    Unfortunately, the opposite direction seems to be the trend. More and more laws are being passed making filming officers illegal.
     
  15. klnOmega Banned Banned

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  16. Brandon85 Green Belt

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    Anyone remember this gem?
    http://www.thewire.com/national/201...nnocent-women-103-times-wont-be-fired/357771/

    When looking for Chris Dorner, who was a large African American Male believed to be in a Grey Nissan Titan, two officers unloaded over 100 rounds into a Blue Toyota Tacoma driven by two small hispanic women.

    Their punishment? Additional training.

    If I had a legitimate reason to believe someone who looked like Chris Dorner was out for my life, and I opened fire on two unarmed women, I would not be posting on this message board; I would be sitting in a prison cell for attempted murder, and rightfully so.

    I have no problem with officers using lethal force when they have a reasonable belief that their physical well being is in jeopardy, the same as citizens are usually allowed to do. However, when police break the law, there seems to be a lack of accountability. Their buddy cops aren't going to arrest them, and their buddy DA isn't going to prosecute.
     
  17. sangreporsangre Gold Belt

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    One of the worst that I've ever seen was this

    [YT]dQ4B8Kr7vlw[/YT]

    This rustles me more than almost anything that police have done. Sure the kid was drunk and obnoxious, but what these pigs did was terrible. Not only for the assault, but the fact that they arrested and charged him with serious offences. How many guys are in prison right now, how many guys have had their life fucked by a felony record for bullshit like this? Honestly those cops should get the death penalty, man. Life without parole or something. Send a message.

    I tried googling to find if anything came of this, if these officers faced any discipline but I couldn't find anything. It seems at the time the police chief backed his officers. The most recent thing I could find was from last January saying the officers filed a motion asking to stay the lawsuit until the kids criminal charges were resolved, but it was denied by the judge. So no idea what happened. This is another case worth marching in the streets for.
     
  18. Son of Werdum Banned Banned

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    Hearing of police being the victims of shootings now does not make me feel upset anymore. Sorry police, but I have ran out of sympathy for you. And real talk, your job isn't even that hard, which is why any butterball with a high school diploma can do it. Try doing a job the requires studying a science, or actual labor. Welding I-beams 80 feet in the air in 100 degree weather is more dangerous, more useful to society, and a harder job. Studying medicine and healing people as a doctor is a harder and more honorable job. Cops are nothing but coward bullys in a protection racket.
     
  19. j98 Brown Belt

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    That k-9 dude has over a dozen complaints against him, all of them dismissed...lol.
     
  20. j98 Brown Belt

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    but being a cop has the most benefits of any job, I mean you can literally murder people and get away with it, scrap a knee and get time off for medical.
     

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