Police and Law Enforcement and hand to hand defensive abilities

[MadSquabbles500]

This thread is inspired by the military H2H thread

I am just wondering do the police and law enforcement community receive hand to hand defensive training. And I am including restraining techniques. I imagine it is more important for them than military as their primary function is not to kill their enemies, especially someone like a corrections officers. Many police officers I see carry a retractable baton even. I know they carry guns also, but are they just allowed to shoot a suspect in the legs if they run away or do they have to try and tackle them first?

 

[killedsirius]

Are you doing some dodgy research project or what man?

 

[Captain_Dammitt]

What is going on here? Are people trying to fight cops and soldiers in the near future?

 

[ceestand]

... but are they just allowed to shoot a suspect in the legs if they run away or do they have to try and tackle them first?

Wat? I don't even.

Anyway, yes, police officers do receive H2H combat training as cadets. Initial and continuing education varies based on the officers' department.

 

[SaiWa]

I believe all officers receive some form of H2H training at the beginning. After that it would be based on the individual to improve/maintaing their skills.

The best of the best (SWAT for example) generally train all the time. They generally gravitate towards MMA-style training. I know one who has a jujitsu base but trains at an MMA gym. Most of his training costs comes out of his own pocket. His police department doesn't provide any additional funding to help him maintain his skills. But his SWAT dpt does get county funding and organizes training programs. These programs may be tailored to their specific needs. I am not sure.

All this may vary from state to state (and even county to county) I think...

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Wat? I don't even.

Anyway, yes, police officers do receive H2H combat training as cadets. Initial and continuing education varies based on the officers' department.

Well, then either they tase them or have to run and tackle them. Lets say there is more than one perp, and you only get one with the taser. The other you have to run down and tackle him. How much practice do you get at this?

 

[panamaican]

Well, then either they tase them or have to run and tackle them. Lets say there is more than one perp, and you only get one with the taser. The other you have to run down and tackle him. How much practice do you get at this?

I used to train karate with a guy in a SWAT unit. I assume they get decent practice because he was always bringing drills to class for us to do.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

I used to train karate with a guy in a SWAT unit. I assume they get decent practice because he was always bringing drills to class for us to do.

Would you be kind enough to explain these said drills?

 

[apizur**]

...but more importantly how to defend against them.

...and slip out of cuffs.

...and develop a resistance to pepper spray.

 

[OoopsaDaisey]

The state of the police force in the U.S. is appalling;I wouldn't expect an officer to be able to defend himself properly at all while unarmed. Many police officers in the US are out of shape and overweight. They also, as far as I'm aware, have little hand to hand combat training.

I once watched a smaller male police officer (5'6" 140lbs?) struggle so hard with a female ham planet that he had to pepper spray her because he wasn't capable of putting her on the ground. It was pathetic.

 

[Gregster]

I imagine it varies from department to department. I'm pretty sure most police cadets get basic hand-to-hand training-- control grabs, evading grabs and punches, etc-- but don't get much ongoing practice.

When I lived in Knoxville, my BJJ instructor (Helio Soneca Moreira) did a lot of work creating combatives programs and doing seminar work with law enforcement. I'm pretty sure the popularity of MMA and BJJ in particular has made its way into law enforcement.

But I'm pretty sure that any MA training-- the ongoing kind you need to stay sharp and keep your skills honed-- most cops do in their free time and own their own nickel. That was certainly the case with the cops I trained with.

I think much of the reason why there is so much official indifference to MA training in law enforcement is that regular MA training involves allocating time and resources that-- at least with regards to street-level, day-to-day
"community policing"-- is best utilized elsewhere.

[CONT'D]

 

[Protectandserve]

Damn this thread is full of people without LEO experience giving answers.

I've been a cop for 5 years. In my academy we got no hand 2 hand or fight training. We got arrest and control training which is mostly aikido based. Utilizing the Koga system, which in my opinion is garbage. Wrist locks and wrist control takedowns. This crap works ok on passively resisting people but will get you seriously hurt in an actual fight.

Out of the academy we do "defensive tactics" quarterly and again only cover Koga tactics. A few departments and academies go through basic Krav Maga but again, training is extremely limited after that.

At our department out of a few hundred officers I would say less than ten do outside martial arts training of any kind.

The reliance on tazers and pepper spray had created cops who have no idea how to deal with a fighting suspect and how to defend themselves with personal weapons.

 

[panamaican]

Would you be kind enough to explain these said drills?

Mostly just ways to get used to multiple individuals, awareness stuff.

My favorite was a drill about dealing with multiple attackers. It went like this, one defender, 4-5 attackers. You start in the center of an open space and try to defend yourself. It was just a way to learn the importance of constant movement, of understanding how little time you have to deal with an assailant before the next one gets to you. How to use the closest guy as a shield from the others. The need to think ahead (don't walk yourself into a corner, for example). To always be aware of who's in front of or behind you and tracking them.

It was always a losing venture. You get hit...a lot. We did it for timed sessions so even if you got hit or grabbed or knocked down, you still had to get up and keep going. But you learn things that help so that at least you have some idea how important it is to get away and how to create that space to get to a door and run away.

We did another one where one person stands with their back to a wall. Again 4-5 attackers. One of them will attack but you don't know which one. They all rush you at once, try not to get hit by the one attacker and don't hit the others.

Again, lot of failure. But it taught you awareness and the importance of paying attention to lots of people/things at once, focus I guess.

Things like that. He was big on explaining how hard it is to defend yourself against the unexpected. So avoid danger as much as possible.

 

[DoctorTaco]

I train a few cops in mma oriented hand to hand technique. Good guys who I respect and enjoy the company of who understand that knowing how to fight coupled with real sparring experience helps them keep calm and collected when they have to go hands on.

That being said, they were both terrible when we first started.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Damn this thread is full of people without LEO experience giving answers.

I've been a cop for 5 years. In my academy we got no hand 2 hand or fight training. We got arrest and control training which is mostly aikido based. Utilizing the Koga system, which in my opinion is garbage. Wrist locks and wrist control takedowns. This crap works ok on passively resisting people but will get you seriously hurt in an actual fight.

Out of the academy we do "defensive tactics" quarterly and again only cover Koga tactics. A few departments and academies go through basic Krav Maga but again, training is extremely limited after that.

At our department out of a few hundred officers I would say less than ten do outside martial arts training of any kind.

The reliance on tazers and pepper spray had created cops who have no idea how to deal with a fighting suspect and how to defend themselves with personal weapons.

This is what I am referring to, the defensive tactics and control training. So they are basically garbage?

Do you carry around a night stick or retractable baton? Do you know how to use those through police training?

 

[Protectandserve]

This is what I am referring to, the defensive tactics and control training. So they are basically garbage?

Do you carry around a night stick or retractable baton? Do you know how to use those through police training?

I have both. I generally carry the ASP retractable baton. The straight stick is in my door in the car.

I'm a short guy and the straight stick gets in the way. It is a much better impact weapon than the ASP but in the 5 years I've been a cop not a single person at my agency has used either. I like the straight stick for the "don't mess with us" image it portrays, good for de-escalation on fight calls, large parties, near riots.

We are trained in their use.

As far as police defense tactics, someone who is a 3 stripe white belt would tool the average cop on the ground. Someone with a few months of basic MMA training (who shows up 2-3 times a week to class) would also kick most cops asses.

The advantages we have as a cop are numbers, tools and the fact that use of force policy and court decisions allow us to go up a level of force on what we are presented for the most part. Someone holds up their hands and says they are gonna kick your ass? Cops can taze, pepper spray, baton or go hands on immediately and be covered on use of force.

We have a ton of cops at our department who I can guarantee have never been in any kind of physical altercation prior to getting hired on. Most have no martial arts backgrounds of any kind either.

 

[SanShou01]

I am just wondering do the police and law enforcement community receive hand to hand defensive training. And I am including restraining techniques. I imagine it is more important for them than military as their primary function is not to kill their enemies, especially someone like a corrections officers.

This is it. Cops require a lot more H2H than military as they are mostly dealing with unarmed civilians, iPhone videos and potential lawsuits, so of course they teach them H2H in their department. Police Dept. also contracts out martial artists to come in and do seminars. Lots of cops also trains BJJ as it's right up the alley of the necessities for their jobs. Just watch the TV show, Cops, and see that many times, a group of 4-5 cops have a very hard time trying to subdue just one guy. Although, their guidelines probably prohibits them from using certain techniques such as RNC, which will get the job done fast. But it's also not easy to restrain a fool who's resisting (using guideline techniques), w/o escalating to punching the shit out of him in the face to soften him up a bit first. While if this same perp, who's untrained, walks into a BJJ class, I'd have no doubt that any 3+ months White belt BJJ cop would tap him out easy, 1 on 1.

Cops who don't train extra, are going to lose vs. fighters. But cops have guns, tasers, batons, backup, radio, etc.

In a H2H fight between a Cop and a Marine....and if all they have is their training from their perspective department only, then my money's on the Cop.

 

[DoctorTaco]

I have both. I generally carry the ASP retractable baton. The straight stick is in my door in the car.

I'm a short guy and the straight stick gets in the way. It is a much better impact weapon than the ASP but in the 5 years I've been a cop not a single person at my agency has used either. I like the straight stick for the "don't mess with us" image it portrays, good for de-escalation on fight calls, large parties, near riots.

We are trained in their use.

As far as police defense tactics, someone who is a 3 stripe white belt would tool the average cop on the ground. Someone with a few months of basic MMA training (who shows up 2-3 times a week to class) would also kick most cops asses.

The advantages we have as a cop are numbers, tools and the fact that use of force policy and court decisions allow us to go up a level of force on what we are presented for the most part. Someone holds up their hands and says they are gonna kick your ass? Cops can taze, pepper spray, baton or go hands on immediately and be covered on use of force.

We have a ton of cops at our department who I can guarantee have never been in any kind of physical altercation prior to getting hired on. Most have no martial arts backgrounds of any kind either.

I remember being in high school and causing havoc on Halloween. We had water balloons filled with a slurry of condiments from my buddies fridge, paintball pistols, eggs, etc. so as we were wandering about, a cop pulls up and so we take off running. The cop opens his door and shouts "STOP! NOW!" And it was so authoritative and forceful I actually stopped for a second as if it were a magic spell. I shook the effects off in a second and started running again, but he experience always stuck with me.

 

[Protectandserve]

^One of the reasons "Officer Presence" is the start of the use of force spectrum. You'd be amazed at what a good loud "Police, Freeze!" Gets you.

Couple that with a drawn tool(gun, tazer, baton) and a "Police get on the fucking ground now!" And it's amazing how quick people give up whatever they are doing.

Although nothing can beat a "This is the police K9 team, if you don't give up now a police K9 will be used. When he finds you he will bite you, this is your last warning!" Coupled with a 75 pound angry Mal.

 

[MarcoW]

I never got the fear of dogs. They aren't very smart and all they can do to hurt you is bite... would be much more afraid of a guy with a gun then a dog if I was a criminal.

That said there are 3 police officers from our local force in our dojo. They range from amazing in skill to average to beginner. They are just regular students to me, who have a job that they can utilize their skills in.