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Pivoting = Turning the Hip?

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by Teriasn, Oct 29, 2010.

  1. Teriasn

    Teriasn White Belt

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    When one is told to 'turn the hip', doesn't this really just mean to pivot?

    Think about turning the hip while keeping the pivot foot facing the guy and still landing with your shin. You would end up torquing a knee unless you had some abnormal ROM with your internal hip rotation.

    Think about pivoting the foot (so toes point to side) without turning the hip and still landing with your shin. Again, you would end up torquing the knee.

    Edit: I am talking about a Muay Thai Angle Kick.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2010
  2. gotobread

    gotobread Purple Belt

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    No, they are two very different things.
     
  3. Bennosuke

    Bennosuke Blue Belt

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    IMO, they are two seperate but linked components of the kick.

    Pivoting does allow for a greater ROM through which the leg can swing through, and takes stress off the knee. The greater ROM allows for more powerat contact. However, I've seen a lot of beginners who can pivot, but can't yet turn their hips over. I think this may be due to lack of flexibility (making it hard to get the leg up high enough to travel far) and lack of neurological training to link the pivoting with the turning over of the hip.
     
  4. ssullivan80

    ssullivan80 see....what had happened was

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    Huh!? No! pivoting and turning over the hip are two different things. That said, one precedes the other when talking about a kick, in order to turn the hip all the way over requires the foot on the post leg to pivot. That said, pivoting is a general movement, just like stepping and sliding are. You should learn to use pivots as part of overall movement. In short, you can pivot in the absence of throwing any strike. Pivot as it applies to striking is for core rotation, pivoting as it applies to footwork is an overall movement that changes posturing, direction, etc.... when moving in the ring.
     
  5. BREEDmonkey

    BREEDmonkey Orange Belt

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    This may sound dumb, but it's visual test to show you the difference.

    Walk over to your bed and put one foot on it extended. Your posting leg should face the bed and the foot on the bed should point to the ceiling.

    Now rotate your posting leg. Your kicking leg will now be able to lay flat on the bed.

    Now roll your foot over so that the top of your big toe is touching the bed. That will turn your hip over.
     
  6. Teriasn

    Teriasn White Belt

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    Thank you for the explanations. This all made sense.
     
  7. vjvj

    vjvj Mr. Pibb + Red Vines = Crazy Delicious

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    I used to think they were the same thing too, but they are definitely separate actions and you gotta train them both. And like others are implying, there's an optimal timing between the two.
     
  8. Connoisseur

    Connoisseur Purple Belt

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    Pivoting on the ball of your foot is what allows your hips to rotate. You turn the foot and the hips follow.
     
  9. gotobread

    gotobread Purple Belt

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    Disagree 100%.
     
  10. panamaican

    panamaican Senior Moderator Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Hip rotation is a completely separate movement from pivoting.

    If you stand with both feet facing forward, you can drive either side of your hip forward without moving your feet. Imagine a vertical pole running down the center of your body and you are rotating your hips around that. With practice, you can develop speed and power with just your hip movements driving your upper body.

    This is without addressing that hip rotation doesn't have to be only around a vertical axis. You can also rotate your hips forward or backwards. If you stand on one leg with your knee raised and pointing at your opponent, you can drive your hips forward without moving your standing leg. You rotate the hips forward and it will drive your knee into the target. All of this can be done without moving your legs, just your hips.

    Pivoting is when you rotate on the balls of your feet to completely shift the direction your body is facing. I won't describe this because I think you already know this. The important thing is learning to sync your hip rotation into your pivots and other movements to maximize power. It's just as important to learn to maximize hip rotation without moving your planted feet, that's how you can generate power even if there isn't time or space to completely shift your body via a pivot or similar action.
     
  11. chino0503

    chino0503 Black Belt

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    that kicking shit is overrated.
     
  12. Teriasn

    Teriasn White Belt

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    So if I am unable to do so (hip rotation / turning the hip) without pivoting, this would indicate a lack of a skill and not a lack of ROM?
     
  13. vjvj

    vjvj Mr. Pibb + Red Vines = Crazy Delicious

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    Definitely. For a long time, I was one of those guys who turned his hip over but didn't pivot. I agree now that they are two separate actions.

    I'm still not 100% cognizant of what the pivot changes mechanically, but I notice a huge difference when I do it (and do it with the right timing).
     
  14. panamaican

    panamaican Senior Moderator Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Probably. But don't get discouraged, your hip's ROM isn't huge anyway. It's usually just a matter of inches but it can be very fast and very powerful. If you have real problems with generating any hip rotation at all, it's a pretty good sign of a weak core and that can always be fixed.
     
  15. Connoisseur

    Connoisseur Purple Belt

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    What a comprehensive, well supported argument. You're totally right!

    Let me expound on what I said before. I was referring to kicking, as the TS seemed to be primarily concerned with.

    Yes, you can rotate your hips without pivoting your foot. HOWEVER, without pivoting your foot, your hips only have so much range of motion; pivoting the foot allows your hips to rotate much further, and is where the power in your kick comes from. If you try to kick with your foot pointed straight forward, and without pivoting it, you won't have any power.

    It's almost the same with punching. Without pivoting on the ball of your foot, your hips range of motion is impeded and you won't get the same power behind it.

    I guess I should've been more specific, but I figured it was obvious given the context of the TS' question.
     
  16. barnowl

    barnowl Green Belt

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    Unlocks the base leg and increase the rang you can turn the hip over in. Also note, total failure to pivot he base leg, ( leaving toes point at target) can generate enough stress to destroy the base leg knee joint.
     

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