PFP foolishness

Discussion in 'Boxing Discussion' started by intrepid brawler, Jan 2, 2021.

  1. ironfist05 Silver Belt

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    oh yeah I agree, Berchelt would be the best win on Loma's resume by quite a distance IMO. Very tough fighter; I remember him walking through Vargas like it was nothing. I agree he probably doesn't have a signature win (other than maybe his first beatdown of Vargas) but it frustrates me that Bob didn't put the Loma/Berchelt fight together when he had the chance.

    I honestly think he might be able to beat Stevenson. Not that I'm sold yet either way, but STevenson hasn't faced anybody close to Berchelt's level yet. I also think Chris Colbert could maybe beat Berchelt down the line and probably Tank in a banger of a fight.
     
  2. ironfist05 Silver Belt

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    yeah my favorite part of that whole hting is like... he was underwhelmed with his pay so he... quit in such a disgraceful way he made sure he'd NEVER get back on network TV <45><45><45>. Definitely dude! Really logical!

    Yeah I agree. Loma doesn't really have power at 135. I think that's his biggest issue more than anything. He can't keep big strong guys like Teo honest, whereas he could for sure at 130 and 126. I guess the quitting from his opponents was mostly frustration, but he definitely seemed to have some sting, and very subtle punch placement.
     
  3. ironfist05 Silver Belt

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    lulz I can be a messy bitch sometimes
     
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  4. intrepid brawler Green Belt

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    honestly, i think colbert has some more maturing to do...he's not there yet. But stevenson is. And even though i think loma's win over grj is the most significant win of his career so far, you have to see that grj was still largely unproven at that point even if he was clearly a very gifted guy...and grj was quite a bit smaller. grj still gave a pretty good account of himself. I had loma winning that one 7-5. I think stevenson shows better skills, more ring generalship, control of distance, ability to lay traps, he's just a smarter fighter than loma...and he's probably a little bigger than loma, but he's also a quite fresher and he's not ever gonna give away the first six rounds of a fight for fear of getting hit. the more i think about it, loma was so overrated...i mean you talk about linares. to even compare linares and stevenson is funny.
     
  5. intrepid brawler Green Belt

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    well, i remember loma-salido as salido dominating the fight....loma looking pretty much out of his depth for the most part. don't know where all this revisionism about it being a close fight comes from....part of the loma hype machine to diminish the impact of the salido defeat in order to boost loma's marketability?

    Anyway, i like how you pass the buck to the WBO for loma-salido. Sure, the sanctioning body was part of it, but let's put the responsibility where it belongs....with loma's braintrust. loma was new to the pro game. His people felt salido was ripe for the taking...and salido still had a name that would look great on loma's record. it was a clear hand-pick. it was supposed to be a showcase for loma. There is no way they would have jeopardized their bright, new, undefeated young star by putting him in with some guy who they thought had a realistic, much less a better than 50/50 chance of beating him...a loma win was pretty much assured based on the fact salido was a fighter past his prime whose style was tailor made. in the end, it was just a case of when cherry-picking goes wrong.
     
  6. intrepid brawler Green Belt

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    i know it always seems like an excuse when a fighter loses and fans give an explanation for the poor performance other than "the other guy was just better." Yeah, we wanna believe loma was just so dominant that walters quit because there's no way he could even begin to figure out what was going on in the ring...but that doesn't square with a lot of things that happened before and since.

    The truth is, no one knows for sure...walters was expected to be the aggressor, and loma's movement threw him off, but walters never even tried to make the adjustment. he didn't go to the body with consistency, he never tried to rough loma up or do any of the things anybody would expect from a champ who really wanted to hold onto his title. And walters was a damn good fighter with experience against different styles. we really believe he lacked the capacity to do better? Instead, he gave a half-effort then quit when he hadn't even gotten hurt or dropped....then he never even fought again.

    i mean, fighters quit and still come back and fight. walters has never even showed any interest in getting back in the ring. And i have it on good authority that the problem was the money...and it makes perfect sense. The guy was a champ...he had made several defenses. beat some of the biggest names in his weight class. then gets paid 1/3 what they pay his CHALLENGER...a challenger with 7 fights. I could see how that would feel like shit and it might sour him against boxing. how he might think, "what's the fuckin use? they'll never pay me what i'm worth. just gonna go in there, pick up the paycheck and move on with my life...i don't owe the fans and the sport a goddamn thing." and that's basically what he did.

    fans can talk smack because they're not the ones in there with some dude that wants to take your head off, so, it's easy to pass judgement. so, people will deride any notion that it was the money...they think fighters just want to fight no matter what and fighters owe them a good show even if it's for crap money and they're being disrespected as men and accomplished professionals. but i'm from a boxing family, so i see things a little different from most fans...i can tell y'all that fighters are people too...maybe walters was too negative and his attitude wasn't helpful, but for a lotta these guys it really is about the pride and the money too.
     
  7. ironfist05 Silver Belt

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    ahhhhh so size was a huge factor. Guess I'd better write off Loma's loss to Lopez and Salido then, basically doesn't count now, right?

    Saying Russell was unproven might be true but hten he became the top dog at 126 later so... kinda irrelevant.



    How? I think he's a good fighter but I don't think he's gonna be ready for Loma's unique style and if your'e getting tagged by Joet Gonzalez I have a hard time believing you'll be dodging Loma's punches easily, nor is he going to be ready for loma's weird pressure game. Honestly I think Stevenson is clearly talented but who has he beaten? You can't say "oh it's about opposition" and then make up a resume of Stevenson. Beating up a woman and her drunk boyfriend doesn't count as a professional match.

    You're right, Linares has actually beaten top ten ranked opposition. Now please point to where I compared Linares and Stevenson. Be very specific, because I didn't do that. I said Stevenson's resume sucks and he hasn't beaten anybody on the level of Linares, which is, objectively, true given that his best win was... P4P great Joet Gonzalez.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2021
  8. intrepid brawler Green Belt

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    I agree with everything you said about how a loma-berchelt fight would go. berchelt would pressure loma in a more technical way than salido. As far as juanma salido, i was as shocked as anybody...i had juanma pegged to be a pfp guy and future HOFer. but juanma-salido is a perfect example of styles make fights....salido had no business stopping juanma. juanma had no answer for that overhand right. but i remember it took about 20 of them big right hands to finally crack juanma's chin. juanma was no pushover, he just had weird flaw in his style where, in spite of all his skills and experience and pedigree he was vulnerable to a looping overhand right...
     
  9. borntoloseNOT Brown Belt

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    You make fair points, and yeah these guys gotta weigh out their careers with money in mind, I guess its another way of looking at it. Maybe in his case what brought him down but it all ties into a mental game lots of guys face. The best have found a way to tune out the unfairness of the world and fight with a die by the sword mentality for scraps until the world gives them what they want. It's the pros. His head may not have been there, maybe for some time at that, but it's all part of the game. He was also one of many to take such a drubbing, so historically he fit just fine with Lomas other scalps, who were also as history will show "picked" for a reason, which would lend to your theory rather than mine. Anyhow...
     
  10. ironfist05 Silver Belt

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    So you stay the only person claiming it was a blowout (despite large portions of the media and even posters on here dissenting) and didn't even bother to rewatch it. Got it, cool.

    WHo the WBO decides to put in a title fight is pretty clearly up to them. There isn't some shadowy cabal of Ukrainians running boxing from behind the scenes. They're a corrupt organization, like any of them. If you think he should't have gotten an early title shot fine, but that's on the WBO and nobody else.

    Salido beat a P4P ranked JuanMa within recent memory when Loma fought him, and he had just given Mikey Garcia the toughest fight of his career up to that point. Whether or not Loma's team thought Salido was beatable is irrelevant because the whole point of putting your fighter in with somebody (like P4P great Joet Gonzalez) is that you think you can beat them; of fucking course they thought Salido was beatable, that's how fightmaking works. Turns out Loma's team was wrong, but this wasn't some desperate attempt to cherry pick a title. He faced a top ranked guy for a vacant title, that happens sometimes, I'm sorry to burst your bubble. You're just projecting whatever paranoid interpretation you have of Loma's management onto something with no proof.
     
  11. ironfist05 Silver Belt

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    oh yeah dude you 100% believe this and aren't desperately pulling excuses out of your ass because you don't want to give Loma any credit.

    Riddle me this, if money really was the issue, why did Walters quit in a way so embarassing that it was guaranteed to kick him off of network TV? Doesn't sound like a guy worried about money to me.
     
  12. intrepid brawler Green Belt

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    I never said size doesn't matter. and again, the version of grj that lost to loma wasn't as seasoned as he later became. but like i said, i consider it one of loma's best wins.

    I appreciate sarcasm, but don't lie on the dude. he didn't hit a woman.

    resume schmesume....it's all about the eye-test until they actually get in the ring. based on what i see stevenson is the better fighter.
     
  13. ironfist05 Silver Belt

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    ok great so I'm gonna pretend like Loma never lost to Salido or Lopez then. Thanks for giving me license.

    GRJ won his title less than a year after Loma beat him. He was already dubbed prospect of hte year.

    oh so he only beat up the drunk boyfriend. Wonderful.
    https://wsvn.com/sports/pro-boxer-s...ry-after-video-surfaces-of-miami-beach-brawl/

    then why are you bitching about Loma's resume? If you think Stevenson is a better fighter, fine, but it's based on nothing until he gets at least 1 top ten win. And FWIW the dude has good defense but we'd better see what he looks like against a competent pressure fighter before we're annointing him.
     
  14. intrepid brawler Green Belt

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    Well, even before he fought juanma, salido was considered a guy who was past his prime. his wins over juanma exposed a flaw in juanma's style but didn't raise salido to the status of a feared contender. in fact, you talk about the mikey fight, and i actually feared for salido's life in that fight because mikey did such a number on him.

    i'm not saying it was a desperate attempy to cherry pick. i'm saying they saw salido in the mikey fight and said "this guy is easy pickings" and for a title too? of course they jumped at the chance. If salido had looked good against mikey, i doubt very much they would have been so willing to put him in against salido in his second pro fight.
     
  15. intrepid brawler Green Belt

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    Feel free to take license to do whatever...it's all good.

    who's bitching about loma's record? loma's record is what it is...not great, but more impressive than lopez record before they fought...aint it weird you still picked lopez to beat loma when resume means so much to you?
     
  16. ironfist05 Silver Belt

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    you know fighters can be somewhat past prime and still be good fighters. The fact that he beat JuanMa (a P4P ranked guy) two years ago and gave Mikey a decent fight indicates that Salido was still very much a dangerous fighter.

    that's more or less exactly what you're saying, whether you're corageous enough to admit it or not.

    you're inventing a hypothetical that can't be proven one way or the other so I'm gonna chuck your argument out the window (and FWIW the later rounds of Salido/Garcia saw Salido coming on, so I wouldn't say he was looking like dogshit).

    Also, most fighters look terrible against Mikey. He's an elite level operator. If your fighter is 1-0 and you get a title shot, you take it, and the only people who thought it would be an easy fight were people brainwashed by media hype (of which Loma got a lot). Have you considered htat maybe Loma's team thought "tough guy, but Loma can probably beat him for the title?"
     
  17. ironfist05 Silver Belt

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    you're bitching about loma's record.

    can't disagree with you about loma's resume, I don't think it's stellar, but, as I said, I thought Lopez was a bigger and better fighter and he'd actually beaten a ranked opponent. I don't think that of Stevenson, other than Stevenson maybe being a bit bigger.
     
  18. intrepid brawler Green Belt

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    you're saying a guy who is mentally checked out of a fight because he's just there to pick up the paycheck should put up a great fight so that the networks invite him back? that's not how it works.

    And it's not that walters couldnt have got back into the mix....he could have taken 6, 7 months, made a comeback and the networks would have been happy to pay him. He never even attempted to comeback. never got back in the ring again. never showed the slightest interest in boxing after that. does that not tell you something about the man's mindstate from probably even before the fight?
     
  19. ironfist05 Silver Belt

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    If I were trying to make money in this sport I'd want to stick to HBO and I wouldn't just quit in the middle of it and make excuses afterwards. He wasn't a star, he wasn't making big money. I don't think you believe anything you're saying but whatever dude.


    Walters made several comeback attempts. He was at least partially frozen out specifically because of his disgraceful showing against Loma.
    https://www.boxingscene.com/nicholas-walters-cancels-his-return-due-illness-eyes-fall-bout--119594
    https://www.boxingscene.com/nicholas-walters-planned-ring-return-pandemic-began--151690

    this is what I found from a two minute google search. I forget when this happened but he had a fight booked a while back and it ended up falling through
     
  20. intrepid brawler Green Belt

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    i have NO problem with loma's record. i'm a fan of loma...i just think he was never a top pfp guy. there's a lotta guys like him.

    You say you pick loma to beat stevenson because loma has the better resume. but you picked lopez over loma because lopez was a bigger and better fighter even though his resume wasn't as good as loma's. i think stevenson is bigger and better than loma even though his record isn't as good as loma's and i pick stevenson to win beat loma and you argue with me. you aint easy, bro.
     

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