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periodization (how to carry over)

D

DaGREATkabookie**

Guest
im planing to do a cycle 8 weeks or so of strength work ( heavy basic 5-3 reps, cardio about 3xs per week) followed by about 8-12 weeks of size training (8-12 reps more body building techniques cardio 4-5xs per week) and a more fitness based cycle 6-8 weeks odd object lifts body weight exercises 5-6 days of cardio with a small amout of lifting heavy 8 reps or so at least 2 sets to fail for all major lifts probably 3X per week w/ functional strength work. My question is what would be the minimum amount of work needed to caryover strength to size and both to a fitness cycle.THANKS A LOT
 
why not work all 3 at the same time?

go really heavy for the main lifts, a bit lighter for the next movement, then go up to 8-10 reps for the last couple movements.
train for "fitness" (sounds like you mean endurance) on off days. i like tabatas.

do you train a ma? sounds like a lot of training for your body to handle if you train ma too - the cardio in particular - unless you are considering mat time cardio, which it can be.
 
colinm said:
why not work all 3 at the same time?

go really heavy for the main lifts, a bit lighter for the next movement, then go up to 8-10 reps for the last couple movements.
train for "fitness" (sounds like you mean endurance) on off days. i like tabatas.

do you train a ma? sounds like a lot of training for your body to handle if you train ma too - the cardio in particular - unless you are considering mat time cardio, which it can be.

If he did them all at the same time, it wouldn't be periodization, Colin. And periodization has taken over the professional athletic world. I wonder how many MMA Athletes are periodizing.


8-12 weeks of "size work" (hypertrophy?) is far too long for a true hypertrophy microcycle. Hypertrophy is far too intense and will break your muscles down.

You should do 2-4 weeks of hypertrophy, followed by 8 weeks of MxS (Maximum Strength) training, followed by your 6-8 weeks of medium endurance training.

You can do cardio during hypertrophy, but be careful not to overtrain, and it's best to do the cardio after your resistance training.
You can also train cardio during MxS, but remember that the muscle can only progress so much in a limited amount of time, and any aerobic conditioning will force a trade-off with anaerobic conditioning. Basically, if you run too much, you're going to inhibit your strength progression.
Run all you want during medium endurance.
 
Madmick said:
If he did them all at the same time, it wouldn't be periodization, Colin. And periodization has taken over the professional athletic world. I wonder how many MMA Athletes are periodizing.


8-12 weeks of "size work" (hypertrophy?) is far too long for a true hypertrophy microcycle. Hypertrophy is far too intense and will break your muscles down.

You should do 2-4 weeks of hypertrophy, followed by 8 weeks of MxS (Maximum Strength) training, followed by your 6-8 weeks of medium endurance training.

You can do cardio during hypertrophy, but be careful not to overtrain, and it's best to do the cardio after your resistance training.
You can also train cardio during MxS, but remember that the muscle can only progress so much in a limited amount of time, and any aerobic conditioning will force a trade-off with anaerobic conditioning. Basically, if you run too much, you're going to inhibit your strength progression.
Run all you want during medium endurance.


THANKS FOR THE INPUT
but how much size could I gain in 4 weeks no juice. or is the reason you recomend keeping it to 2-4 week is to keep strength.
 
Madmick said:
If he did them all at the same time, it wouldn't be periodization, Colin. And periodization has taken over the professional athletic world. I wonder how many MMA Athletes are periodizing.


8-12 weeks of "size work" (hypertrophy?) is far too long for a true hypertrophy microcycle. Hypertrophy is far too intense and will break your muscles down.

You should do 2-4 weeks of hypertrophy, followed by 8 weeks of MxS (Maximum Strength) training, followed by your 6-8 weeks of medium endurance training.

You can do cardio during hypertrophy, but be careful not to overtrain, and it's best to do the cardio after your resistance training.
You can also train cardio during MxS, but remember that the muscle can only progress so much in a limited amount of time, and any aerobic conditioning will force a trade-off with anaerobic conditioning. Basically, if you run too much, you're going to inhibit your strength progression.
Run all you want during medium endurance.

you, my friend, are obviously new to periodization. periodization does not just refer to linear or western periodization. eastern or conjugate has proved far more effective than linear, where all training qualities are simultaneously addressed. look at the weight training protocols in powerlifting, where max sterngth, dynamic effort, and hypertrophy are all covered in the space of a week. hypertrophy for extended periods is not too demanding on the body if it is performed correctly.
 
DaGREATkabookie said:
THANKS FOR THE INPUT
but how much size could I gain in 4 weeks no juice. or is the reason you recomend keeping it to 2-4 week is to keep strength.

Juicing changes the rules. This forum isn't about size. Go to a bodybuilding forum.
 
cockysprinter said:
you, my friend, are obviously new to periodization. periodization does not just refer to linear or western periodization. eastern or conjugate has proved far more effective than linear, where all training qualities are simultaneously addressed. look at the weight training protocols in powerlifting, where max sterngth, dynamic effort, and hypertrophy are all covered in the space of a week. hypertrophy for extended periods is not too demanding on the body if it is performed correctly.

You're wrong that I'm new to periodization, but you're right in that I don't know anything about the Eastern forms of it. But I haven't seen any programs involving "non-linear" plans used by the Division I or II or Professional athletic conditioning programs I've been priveleged to see (those I've studied most are some from Cal State Bakersfield, UNC, University of Texas, and the San Diego Chargers).

If you know so much more than me about periodization, maybe you can help the guy out. Your post contributed nothing, and you provided absolutely no evidence to back your claims (or even allusions to evidence not linked).
 
Madmick said:
You're wrong that I'm new to periodization, but you're right in that I don't know anything about the Eastern forms of it. But I haven't seen any programs involving "non-linear" plans used by the Division I or II or Professional athletic conditioning programs I've been priveleged to see (those I've studied most are some from Cal State Bakersfield, UNC, University of Texas, and the San Diego Chargers).

If you know so much more than me about periodization, maybe you can help the guy out. Your post contributed nothing, and you provided absolutely no evidence to back your claims (or even allusions to evidence not linked).

I know more than both of you, I just choose to stay out of this.
 
cockysprinter said:
you, my friend, are obviously new to periodization. periodization does not just refer to linear or western periodization. eastern or conjugate has proved far more effective than linear, where all training qualities are simultaneously addressed. look at the weight training protocols in powerlifting, where max sterngth, dynamic effort, and hypertrophy are all covered in the space of a week. hypertrophy for extended periods is not too demanding on the body if it is performed correctly.

Dude, I just checked the thread you started in this forum, and you're asking advice on a bullshit cookie-cutter bench program to add mass since you're- and I'm having trouble not laughing here- 6'0" and 125 lbs.

I'm 6'5" 248 lbs. with 15.8% bodyfat. I bench over 300, squat over 400, deadlift nearly 500, and I've only been back in training for about a year and a half.

YOU'RE obviously the one new to strength and conditioning, and read some blurb somewhere and think you know your shit.

Do you really want to get your mass-building advice from a Slim Jim, Kabookie?
 
Madmick said:
Dude, I just checked the thread you started in this forum, and you're asking advice on a bullshit cookie-cutter bench program to add mass since you're- and I'm having trouble not laughing here- 6'0" and 125 lbs.

I'm 6'5" 248 lbs. with 15.8% bodyfat. I bench over 300, squat over 400, deadlift nearly 500, and I've only been back in training for about a year and a half.

YOU'RE obviously the one new to strength and conditioning, and read some blurb somewhere and think you know your shit.

Do you really want to get your mass-building advice from a Slim Jim, Kabookie?

that wasn't very nice! your lifts aren't that impressive either, let us all be supportive.

I will start:

Madmick, I see a lot of potential in you!! Keep on trucking, that is what truckers do.
 
Madmick said:
Dude, I just checked the thread you started in this forum, and you're asking advice on a bullshit cookie-cutter bench program to add mass since you're- and I'm having trouble not laughing here- 6'0" and 125 lbs.

I'm 6'5" 248 lbs. with 15.8% bodyfat. I bench over 300, squat over 400, deadlift nearly 500, and I've only been back in training for about a year and a half.

YOU'RE obviously the one new to strength and conditioning, and read some blurb somewhere and think you know your shit.

Do you really want to get your mass-building advice from a Slim Jim, Kabookie?

hahahaha that thread wasnt serious at all. im 5'9" 160 for one, and as my name suggests, im a sprinter. the tone of my original post was based on the tone you addressed another poster in, so dont give me flak. if you are only familiar with western (linear periodization), you cant be too involved in researching training theory. also, you did not provide evidence to support your own statements, so please stop being a hypocrite. if youd like information on eastern (conjugate) periodization, here are a few websites you can check out:

www.charliefrancis.com
www.powerdevelomentinc.com
www.elitefts.com

here are some books:

charlie francis training system by charlie francis
supertraining by mel siff
the science and practice of strength training by vladimir zatsiorsky
periodization: theory and methodology by tudor bompa

some books focus on it more than others, but all have information. if you would like proof of the effectiveness of conjugate periodization vs. linear periodization, try using it yourself.

i also said to note how linear periodization is also used in conjugate periodization. for example, ill use sprinting as an example. in regards to weight training, people often use a progression like this:

anatomical adaptation -> hypertrophy -> maxS -> maintenance

though in the scope of the entire program, the same stimuli are always used:
speed work
tempo
weights
bodyweight exercises
plyos

the intensity and volume of each stimuli are varied throughout the year, depending on the yearly plan, athletes condition, strengths, weaknesses, etc. the same stimuli are alwyas maintained however. its important to note that in a complex sport, ie anything other than powerlifting and weightlifting, there is always a somewhat linear progression, but it is also important to not that this is different from strict linear progression. in eastern models all motor qualities are constantly maintained or advanced. this is the biggest reason conjugate periodization is superior to linear. linear allows some motor qualities to fall behind for the advancement in others. conjugate periodization minimizes this. for a more comprehensive look at the difference between east and west, heres an article:
http://www.elitetrack.com/articles/sprinttheories.pdf
 
Conceded.

I appreciate the info. I've been through two of Bompa's books and several others, though none that you mentioned. I'm reading his master text, the one you mentioned, Periodization, right now, but I was under the impression he was an advocate of linear training.

I was thinking on ordering a book by Zatiorsky, but I wasn't sure which one (there'a number of "rare" books on the market, and in the case of the Eastern publications, those are often the master texts...I didn't want to buy a watered down version of a panascopic theory)- now I know which to order.

Anyway, I'm off to do my research. The guy who started this thread...it looks like you've got all you need. Don't be lazy with the reading.
 
Fedorable said:
that wasn't very nice! your lifts aren't that impressive either, let us all be supportive.

I will start:

Madmick, I see a lot of potential in you!! Keep on trucking, that is what truckers do.

You should, I'd dunk on you.

I'm new to the martial arts. Powerlifting ain't exactly part of swimming or basketball, so max lifts have never been a goal of my training.

There's been more than one top-heavy fool who made the mistake of coming onto the basketball court. Those guys are pretty useless. I think there's a guy in here, Carnal, who takes pride in that. I'm surprised there's so many strong guys in the martial arts. I don't get it.

Oh yeah, and I've never done roids.
 
Madmick said:
You should, I'd dunk on you.

I'm new to the martial arts. Powerlifting ain't exactly part of swimming or basketball, so max lifts have never been a goal of my training.

There's been more than one top-heavy fool who made the mistake of coming onto the basketball court. Those guys are pretty useless. I think there's a guy in here, Carnal, who takes pride in that. I'm surprised there's so many strong guys in the martial arts. I don't get it.

Oh yeah, and I've never done roids.

I could dunk in HS, I want to take a video and post it once I do it again. I am 5'8" . Carnal has a 700 lbs squat, maybe he is bottom heavy.
 
anatomical adaptation -> hypertrophy -> maxS -> maintenance

Interesting. WHen I first started out, I did alot of bodybuilding stuff with my upperbody for hypertrophy and then went to powerlifting.

The thing is I never bothered to do that with my legs. I have rarely used my legs in anything in my life or have I ever attempted any Lowerbody workouts before this.

The thing is i never went through the hypertrophy and crap for lowerbody and just straight to powerlifting and max's.

DO I need to revert back to hypertrophy for my legs?
 
Fedorable said:
I could dunk in HS, I want to take a video and post it once I do it again. I am 5'8" . Carnal has a 700 lbs squat, maybe he is bottom heavy.

That's impressive. But if I was your height, I could still dunk.
 
Thanks for all the input and links you guys, I shall soon get started on my thesis :D
 
Madmick said:
That's impressive. But if I was your height, I could still dunk.

let us not get into a pissing contest, I have a small bladder.
 
Ted-P said:
Interesting. WHen I first started out, I did alot of bodybuilding stuff with my upperbody for hypertrophy and then went to powerlifting.

The thing is I never bothered to do that with my legs. I have rarely used my legs in anything in my life or have I ever attempted any Lowerbody workouts before this.

The thing is i never went through the hypertrophy and crap for lowerbody and just straight to powerlifting and max's.

DO I need to revert back to hypertrophy for my legs?
Someone answer the damn question.
 
Ted-P said:
Someone answer the damn question.

no, you don't. If your goal is big legs, then you can, but while getting stronger, your legs will gain some mass anyways. My legs are like Cro-cop naturally though.
 
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