PED Testing

[Cytree]

I'll start by saying that I know enough about PEDs to fill an uninformed thimble.

I have been on this forum for quite awhile though and have seen that some posters know a lot on the topic. So I wanted to ask, how possible is it for a test to be wrong? It seems to me that the tolerances are so microscopic and the human body's complete functions are still partially unknown(hell no one even knows why we sleep. Just that we need to). I am not an apologist for cheaters. I just wonder how close a person is to testing positive if he is a clean but extremely well conditioned athlete taking approved supplements.

The reaon I ask is that chemistry is a difficult subject even for chemists to get correct every single time. There are also stories about lab short comings all the time. And in virtually every other subject there is at least room for error. But when it comes to a positive PED test there is almost zero room. If you test positive then you are 100% guilty, do not pass go. They will test your B sample but that is about it.

It is the certainty that a positive test ALWAYS equals PED use that makes me skeptical(as odd as that sounds). I am sure that the vast majority are guilty. But the fact that the testing bodies never say "Oh OK we see what happened here. There was no attempt to break the rules. The test was a valid positive but it was caused by ingestion of X and then Y happened. The result was unknown before now so we are not going to penalize". This may have happened but I have never heard of it.

Anytime an agency or a person is 100% sure with no exceptions I raise an eyebrow. But as I said I know almost nothing about the intricacies of PEDs. So again, is it possible for a person to test positive without having used PEDs on purpose (or have had them fed to him/her which is the same thing as being guilty)? Thanks for any experts out there for taking the time.

 

[kenCs]

No, it isnt. You use PEDS and you're more likely to get caught. Some of the top stuff is harder to detect though and thats why I was a little surprised Brock got caught. Dude probably has some of the undetectable shit and he still got caught or maybe he used some of that pleb shit and got caught.

 

[Fahcough]

I follow you TS.

We can't know all compounds and reactions to substances. If a fighter sprayed his cooking skillet with PAM and then brushed teeth with Colgate after and the 2 combined threw the same flag that *insert PED name* would, how do we know the test are 100% accurate and not red lighting on possibilities.

 

[smiles mma]

I think that's where the random tests help, they can track results and look for anything strange.

 

[WinZip]

PED testing isn't just for steroids anymore. As science and medicine have advanced, so have the methods used to take PEDs and then also to mask that use. Jon Jones, for example, was busted for 2 substances which provide no benefit by themselves but are banned because there is no legitimate reason to take it - unless you have breast cancer. Aside from that, it can be used to maintain high levels of testosterone for a period of time. Even if the test doesn't detect the excess testosterone, the test can pick up evidence of doping without the real performance enhancers showing up at all.

Thus, it's pretty hard for the test to be wrong. There is no allowable limit of these substances, it's just a matter of whether or not they're over the threshold that can be tested for. That's why you can be tested 3 times in a week and only test positive once: the other times, the substance is there but below the threshold.

This is why Jon Jones really is screwed. There's no supplements which contain these banned substances, and there's no reason to take them unless you're taking other things as well.

 

[Sean Long]

I follow you TS.

We can't know all compounds and reactions to substances. If a fighter sprayed his cooking skillet with PAM and then brushed teeth with Colgate after and the 2 combined threw the same flag that *insert PED name* would, how do we know the test are 100% accurate and not red lighting on possibilities.

This just isnt accurate. I was a competitive body builder for over 20 years and also a heavy former PED user. I am still VERY connected to the body building community. There is a very slim possibility that someone gets a tainted supplement BUT highly unlikely (i know we had 1 recently). However, if they were "tainted supplements" body builders would be the first to know and would empty the shelves buying them (no testing in body building). Tainted supplements or food are just an excuse to make the fighter caught using appear innocent to the ignorant casual fan.

Furthermore, if you could combine common household items to achieve a PED like result, body builders would be doing it in mass. The fact is, body builders are the guinea pigs of PED experimentation.

Most fighters that get popped are not innocent (99%). I agree that Brock should have been on some Balco lab type stuff that should be undetectable. Maybe, he got popped for a diuretic or estrogen blocker.......we will soon find out.

 

[WinZip]

I agree that Brock should have been on some Balco lab type stuff that should be undetectable. Maybe, he got popped for a diuretic or estrogen blocker.......we will soon find out.

Even the labs are going to have trouble keeping up now that the testers are getting serious and are banning entire families of chemicals rather than individual ones. the implementation of biological passports over time will really allow PED users to be found out. That said, there probably will still be ways to beat the tests using new methods that can't be tested for...yet.

 

[Wertbag]

The thing to remember is it is not a single black and white question. There are literally hundreds of items on the banned list and how they are tested and confirmed differs. For instance many items are synthetic and therefore should never appear in the human body. Some like testosterone is a floating level, where each person has a naturally different amount in their body. They therefore set the failure level very high (4 times the normal level) so slight variations won't cause a fail.

 

[Fahcough]

This just isnt accurate. I was a competitive body builder for over 20 years and also a heavy former PED user. I am still VERY connected to the body building community. There is a very slim possibility that someone gets a tainted supplement BUT highly unlikely (i know we had 1 recently). However, if they were "tainted supplements" body builders would be the first to know and would empty the shelves buying them (no testing in body building). Tainted supplements or food are just an excuse to make the fighter caught using appear innocent to the ignorant casual fan.

Furthermore, if you could combine common household items to achieve a PED like result, body builders would be doing it in mass. The fact is, body builders are the guinea pigs of PED experimentation.

Most fighters that get popped are not innocent (99%). I agree that Brock should have been on some Balco lab type stuff that should be undetectable. Maybe, he got popped for a diuretic or estrogen blocker.......we will soon find out.

I wasn't suggesting household cocktails would give bottled results. More along the lines of , we dump so many chemicals in our bodies that we might trigger the alert by complete accident.

Had that convo with the lady friend while reading 5 bottles of protein labels. How come I can't accidentally find some of this tainted stuff and save hundreds of dollars.

 

[Cytree]

I wasn't suggesting household cocktails would give bottled results. More along the lines of , we dump so many chemicals in our bodies that we might trigger the alert by complete accident.

Had that convo with the lady friend while reading 5 bottles of protein labels. How come I can't accidentally find some of this tainted stuff and save hundreds of dollars.

That is what I was kind of getting at. In cycling they have a bio passport that tracks you from a baseline. From what I understand deviations are what are used as well.

Wertbag's comment was helpful as well. If there is zero chance for a person to produce a chemical naturally and it is known how that synthetic is made and it cannot be generated in the human body just by mixing chemicals from different foods and supplements; then having any found seems like a cut and dry case.

I would assume most of my problem is not really understanding how they can break down and detect a chemical signature so accurately and without doubt. The process is probably very well understood with no room for error. I am going to spend the next few hours reading up on it to kill the nagging doubt.

Thank you for the replies everyone.

 

[Sean Long]

I wasn't suggesting household cocktails would give bottled results. More along the lines of , we dump so many chemicals in our bodies that we might trigger the alert by complete accident.

Had that convo with the lady friend while reading 5 bottles of protein labels. How come I can't accidentally find some of this tainted stuff and save hundreds of dollars.

With the current "biological passport" process, false positives are not going to happen. AND, if by some amazing coincidence they did, USADA would find out why the false positive occurred. USADA gets paid no matter the results, so they dont lean in a given direction.

 

[Sean Long]

That is what I was kind of getting at. In cycling they have a bio passport that tracks you from a baseline. From what I understand deviations are what are used as well.

Wertbag's comment was helpful as well. If there is zero chance for a person to produce a chemical naturally and it is known how that synthetic is made and it cannot be generated in the human body just by mixing chemicals from different foods and supplements; then having any found seems like a cut and dry case.

I would assume most of my problem is not really understanding how they can break down and detect a chemical signature so accurately and without doubt. The process is probably very well understood with no room for error. I am going to spend the next few hours reading up on it to kill the nagging doubt.

Thank you for the replies everyone.

Not going to beat you up but its naive to have the posture you have on PED's. Look at all the athletes getting popped in almost every sport around the world (even fencing). Why would MMA be any different? MONEY = win at all costs = bend the rules when possible.

 

[Cytree]

Not going to beat you up but its naive to have the posture you have on PED's. Look at all the athletes getting popped in almost every sport around the world (even fencing). Why would MMA be any different? MONEY = win at all costs = bend the rules when possible.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I didn't mean just MMA and asking a question while mentioning why I was asking isn't a posture.

 

[Sean Long]

I have no idea what you are talking about. I didn't mean just MMA and asking a question while mentioning why I was asking isn't a posture.

People are using anything and everything to win......including PED's......its all about the $$$$$