Palhares vs Shields *spoilers*

Nnedd said:
But he didn't and it wasn't.

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Shield's leg is clearly inside of Palhares' leg the entire time until after the roll.
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I see, another thing I just noticed is that jakes arms was already disconted from his body... beastly move.
 
There's a lot to be said here and I'll try to make my thoughts on it make sense.

I'm not an expert grappler or MMA fighter. However, I think we all agree that there is a point with EVERY sub that you *know* you have the sub. Which is why we practice to control the position. Now, I understand this is an MMA fight with blood, sweat and so on making things slippery and guys are amped up and not wanting to lose. But at a certain point, I can't help but feel like Rousimar doesn't realize the sub is on and tight, and he should be read for the ref to stop him and be expecting it.

Even if we agree that adrenaline, noise, and wanting to not loosen up until the fight is stopped, the amount of times the ref has to tap and yell is a bit excessive.

I feel like that Rousimar isn't a "bad" or doing it totally on purpose. It's hard to elaborate this without getting dubs, but it just seems like he just really is not a very intelligent person. That his brain reacts and understand things in a very simple manner. But at the same time, grappling and BJJ are not very simple things with a lot of theory of leverage involved, so its hard to really use that as an explanation. Even if Rousimar's mental capacity of intelligence is not high, its still not an excuse (which is why I used the word explanation).

If his IQ is below average, or he is just a simple person, then maybe it explains how he can get into this very focused, tunnel vision state where all he can understand is what is in front of him and what he is doing (such as latching onto a submission). Maybe that's why it take physical force to pry him off a submission and why that engages him to let go where as more reserved methods of simple touch and verbal commands are things his brain doesn't understand. Maybe like he functions more like Lennie in Of Mice and Men. He doesn't understand how or why he hurts people, and doesn't really register that what he did was a problem or wrong.
 
Edison Carasio said:
Maybe like he functions more like Lennie in Of Mice and Men. He doesn't understand how or why he hurts people, and doesn't really register that what he did was a problem or wrong.
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Can we get some test puppies and auburn headed vixens to investigate your theory? I'll provide the hay.
 
So many conflicted feelings. I was always a Palhares fan, and I always gave him the benefit of the doubt. I really don't know anymore. I enjoy watching his performances and he's an incredibly gifted submission fighter but it's a shame that it's always tainted with these post ref-stop cranks. I used to argue that I thought Palhares wasn't able to maybe comprehend things as well mid-fight, or maybe he had tunnel vision and just couldn't honestly let go as fast, but even if that's true it seems that it's just so much of a liability.

All my hopes to see him in the UFC again are over, and I can't imagine fighting the guy knowing that if you lose you are more than likely going to get your limbs shredded after the stoppage. Giant balls to fight that guy.

I still would like to think that he's just a very nice guy that's misunderstood and that he's just unable to let go for whatever reason. That still doesn't mean he shouldn't be punished for this, and if he's unable to fight safely no matter what, that's obviously a big cause for concern.

The eye raking thing against Shields has me unsure of my previous opinion in regards to him being a "dirty" fighter or not. Not really sure what to think, beyond he's clearly a liability in there from a promotional standpoint. Lotta good points made about him getting more criticism than other fighters that do some similar things, but here's a good video. Joe Lauzon took 6 random sub wins of his own and 6 random Palhares sub wins and compared the times it took to let go after the ref stopped the fight. Palhares' time came in 5 times as long to let go.



EDIT: Another interesting thing is that Palhares also ignores the ref or is unaware of the ref even when it's to his disadvantage. It's like the ref doesn't exist. When he was pounding on Dan Miller, he stopped the fight himself and jumped on the cage to celebrate. he had to be pulled down and told the fight wasn't over. Same with him stopping mid fight against Nate Marquardt.
 
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Just looking at the sub. If I didn't know it was Palhares, I'm not sure I'd think anything was amiss. You don't stop until the ref stops you and he did stop shortly after. Doesn't seem like a particularly long delay.
 
This is all bullshit!
Palhares has so far not ended anyones career or even hurt anyone as far as i know.
People always make sure to get a few extra shots in when going for the knockout.
He is just making sure that the fight is a done deal.

There are soo many examples of people escaping very tight submissions just because the fighter applying the hold is too nice to go through with it.
To be a succesful submission fighter in todays mma circuit you need to have your opponents know that you will break their limbs if they dont tap right away.
People are just being pussies cause they think this is sport jiu jitsu.


To be fair i am a huge shields fan but have lost respect for him since he just lay n prays his ways to shitty decisions against opponents he knows he can do that too.
Him complaining like this makes him look like a crybaby.
 
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Drew Foster said:
So many conflicted feelings. I was always a Palhares fan, and I always gave him the benefit of the doubt. I really don't know anymore. I enjoy watching his performances and he's an incredibly gifted submission fighter but it's a shame that it's always tainted with these post ref-stop cranks. I used to argue that I thought Palhares wasn't able to maybe comprehend things as well mid-fight, or maybe he had tunnel vision and just couldn't honestly let go as fast, but even if that's true it seems that it's just so much of a liability.

All my hopes to see him in the UFC again are over, and I can't imagine fighting the guy knowing that if you lose you are more than likely going to get your limbs shredded after the stoppage. Giant balls to fight that guy.

I still would like to think that he's just a very nice guy that's misunderstood and that he's just unable to let go for whatever reason. That still doesn't mean he shouldn't be punished for this, and if he's unable to fight safely no matter what, that's obviously a big cause for concern.

The eye raking thing against Shields has me unsure of my previous opinion in regards to him being a "dirty" fighter or not. Not really sure what to think, beyond he's clearly a liability in there from a promotional standpoint. Lotta good points made about him getting more criticism than other fighters that do some similar things, but here's a good video. Joe Lauzon took 6 random sub wins of his own and 6 random Palhares sub wins and compared the times it took to let go after the ref stopped the fight. Palhares' time came in 5 times as long to let go.



EDIT: Another interesting thing is that Palhares also ignores the ref or is unaware of the ref even when it's to his disadvantage. It's like the ref doesn't exist. When he was pounding on Dan Miller, he stopped the fight himself and jumped on the cage to celebrate. he had to be pulled down and told the fight wasn't over. Same with him stopping mid fight against Nate Marquardt.
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Thanks for posting this. It was really interesting.

I very much agree to his point that although you don't stop for the opponents tap, it should prime you for releasing quick at the moment the ref intervenes.
 
I wonder how the defenders would feel if he did this to them.
 
smc said:
Again, I mentioned that in the replay the second Mazagatti pulled the arm is the exact point in which he let up. It's only one second of Mazagatti attempting to stop the fight total, but literally the instant he grabs his shoulder is when he lets up.

I agree he did more, and the point in which he wasn't tapping his ass like Shields and actually grabbed him like he should have in the first place is when he stopped.

Question: Can you show me an example of a ref stopping a fight for submission by tapping a guy? It's not sarcasm, it's an honest question. One that I am now going to go into the fight library to check out. I can't ever remember a ref trying to stop a fight by tapping him, from behind him no less.
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Ok. So the ref steps in and touches his body while verbally shouting to stop. That's not good enough? Refs literally have to pry you off now? In grappling competitions, do refs have to pull guys off? In MMA, do refs have to pull guys off? Palhares is the only guy that people are making excuses for.

And if you want examples of a ref stopping a fight simply by touching the fighters and verbalizing that the fight is over, just take a look a Lauzon's video.

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The man got kicked out of his gym by his friggin mentor for injuring people. He got kicked out of an organization. That alone should tell you that this isn't some fluke. The man clearly has a habit of this. Even professional fighters are calling for his ban.
 
mattemate said:
Yeah, I linked to the rebuttal from Alex Davis (Palhares's manager) from the article you posted. In all seriousness, I think only BJJ_rage is defending him at this point. He's a good poster but I disagree with him here.

Renzo defended him last time-- not Fitch, but when he got booted from the UFC. I wonder what Renzo would have to say now?

Are ANY pro fighters really defending him at this point?

In any case, whether intentional or not, it keeps happening. I don't think you need a "why" at this point. You have the "what," which should be enough. It's a damn shame too, because he's that good. He may be able to go in and sub Robbie Lawler tomorrow, he's definitely a top tier guy, but he does not belong in there at this point.

Do you think a one year suspension would get his attention?

And I'll add one more thing: Those eye gouges leave me convinced he is just doing this shit on purpose. The retard act ain't working. Athletic commission ought to overturn this to a N/C or just outright DQ. Shields got fucked. What a shitty ref. Refs should just auto DQ on the second gouge.
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There's a standandbang episode out now with Renzo saying that Palhares' actions were inexcusable. If even Renzo says that you're too dangerous and irresponsible...
 
JustinTime said:
There's a standandbang episode out now with Renzo saying that Palhares' actions were inexcusable. If even Renzo says that you're too dangerous and irresponsible...
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Yeah, you can step on my head all day, but for God's sake, don't kneebar me or heelhook me past the point of no return.

From horse meat to pig food.
 
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