Palhares vs Mir situation.

[TrainAllDay]

Watch Paull Harris do it in ADCC vs David Avellan.
He is just a wreck to compete against in anything

David Avellan was just an idiot.

 

[Ragnarocker]

He's never injured anyone, Dana. Maybe he's gotten confused and held it too long once or twice but he hasn't hurt anyone with it. Compare this with your hero Frank Mir who seems to hurt someone every time he attempts a sub?

Wtf I'm one of the one's saying he's no worse than Mir and you pull that Dana shit? You're an idiot thekimbo. And he's injured a few guys thekimbo.

 

[scorpipede]

Classy fighters will let go of a choke when they feel the guy is out. Lesnar was clearly tapping 5-6 times before Mir let go of the kneebar.

not classy = dirty though? I don't think so.

Lesnar has every right to be pissed as Mazzagatti for that bullshit. That guy has been ineffective for too long and has to go.

You know a ref can't use replay to make decisions? If Mir let go of that before Mezzagatti stopped it it may have cost him the fight. Lesnar was doing rather well up to that point.

 

[dakimbo]

Wtf I'm one of the one's saying he's no worse than Mir and you pull that Dana shit? You're an idiot thekimbo. And he's injured a few guys thekimbo.

Uh, no Dana, he's never injured anyone.

 

[Tsar]

Also Sylvia tried to slam Mir after the break and HE wanted to keep fighting.

yes, good point. what a nut.

 

[Ragnarocker]

not classy = dirty though? I don't think so.

Lesnar has every right to be pissed as Mazzagatti for that bullshit. That guy has been ineffective for too long and has to go.

You know a ref can't use replay to make decisions? If Mir let go of that before Mezzagatti stopped it it may have cost him the fight. Lesnar was doing rather well up to that point.

It was a combination of Mir holding too long and Mazagatti being a shit ref. Given the number of arms Mir has snapped it's hard to say he's a clean fighter if you're going to hate Palhares for injuring fighters.

If Mir held the kneebar to ensure the victory, how is it that much worse that Palhares does the same?

 

[scorpipede]

It was a combination of Mir holding too long and Mazagatti being a shit ref. Given the number of arms Mir has snapped it's hard to say he's a clean fighter if you're going to hate Palhares for injuring fighters.

If Mir held the kneebar to ensure the victory, how is it that much worse that Palhares does the same?

hmmmmmm...one holds a sub until the fight is stopped by the ref, not after it's stopped by the ref. That's pretty simple to me.

Am I not getting what you're trying to convey here?

at least you have a kick ass av!!!

 

[TheDarkEmperor]

Nog didn't tap until the shoulder popped, and Frank told the ref that Kongo was asleep, so he wouldn't have to hold on longer than necessary.

 

[scorpipede]

I will say this: neither of these fighters has the class that Joe Lauzon showed against Gomi. That was maybe my favorite moment of the MMA year so far. I didn't know I cared about such things til it happened.

 

[Ragnarocker]

hmmmmmm...one holds a sub until the fight is stopped by the ref, not after it's stopped by the ref. That's pretty simple to me.

Am I not getting what you're trying to convey here?

at least you have a kick ass av!!!

As a HW I think it's easier for Mir to do damage before the ref gets in there, so he should be careful to not crank until the ref stops him. A good sportsman would consider both his opponent's reaction as well as the ref's action when deciding to let a submission go. Joe Lauzon made good points about that in his video about Palhares.

Thanks about the av, though I plan to change it soon to a scantily clad chick.

 

[dakimbo]

I will say this: neither of these fighters has the class that Joe Lauzon showed against Gomi. That was maybe my favorite moment of the MMA year so far. I didn't know I cared about such things til it happened.

Yeah, that was SO classy how he hit Gomi in the back of the head 10 times and then complained to the ref to get an early stoppage.

 

[Ragnarocker]

I will say this: neither of these fighters has the class that Joe Lauzon showed against Gomi. That was maybe my favorite moment of the MMA year so far. I didn't know I cared about such things til it happened.

Same boat with guys like Mousasi who stops punching guys when they are clearly out.

Nog didn't tap until the shoulder popped, and Frank told the ref that Kongo was asleep, so he wouldn't have to hold on longer than necessary.

Mir could have let the choke go once Kongo was out, he didn't have to keep choking him until the ref stopped him. It's not like Kongo would have woken up and continued fighting if the ref didn't call the fight.

 

[Fizzee Water]

Big Nog never tapped so Frank kept cranking and that's what happened. Should've tapped. There wasn't a problem when Brock tapped.

There was. The Mazz was WAY late in stopping Mir after Brock tapped. Wasn't Mir's fault though, he held the sub until the ref jumped in which is what you are supposed to do.

 

[scorpipede]

You forgot that Mir choked Kongo out. So that's 5 people he's injured with subs. Paul Harris? Still ZERO.

the Lesnar "incident" was Mazzagatti doing a shit job. Kongo was another instance of the ref not realizing what was going on. Neither of those are anything significant.

Mir doesn't hold a sub after the ref stops the fight.

Are you actually arguing this because you believe it to be true or are you just doing it to argue? I have to believe the latter.

Yeah, that was SO classy how he hit Gomi in the back of the head 10 times and then complained to the ref to get an early stoppage.

thanks for the clarification.

 

[scorpipede]

Same boat with guys like Mousasi who stops punching guys when they are clearly out.

Mir could have let the choke go once Kongo was out, he didn't have to keep choking him until the ref stopped him. It's not like Kongo would have woken up and continued fighting if the ref didn't call the fight.

I don't think fighters train to think that way when they're all amped up and "going for the kill"...bad choice of words in this particular thread?

 

[DawsonLucas]

I don't think Palhares is intentional sadistic or cruel.

He's just really, really slow up there.

You've seen his weird flubs over and over again. Even in interviews he's off.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

TS, don't bother addressing idiots with logic and facts.

Idiots are idiots because they're idiotic.

 

[DeathIsHere]

I'll make this very easy for you:

Number of fighters injured by Frank Mir subs because he held them too long: 3
Number of fighters injured by Paul Harris: ZERO

Now how is Paul Harris the dirty one again?

Let me help you here.

Number of fighters injured by Frank Mir subs because he held them too long: 0 (Sylvia didn't tap, Nog didn't tap until after his arm was broken, and Kongo never tapped at all).
Number of fighters injured by Rousimar Palhares subs because he held them too long: at least 1 (Mike Pierce suffered a sprained MCL and torn ankle ligament due to Palhares holding that heel hook, source here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxS_zw_ki6Y#t=098)

I think it's a bit of Mir not having broken anyone's shit for a while (Nog's arm was 2011) while Palhares cranked too long again against Shields just last month.

But looking at their history, Mir has maybe 4 questionable acts:
Trevan - broke his arm
Sylvia - broke his arm
Lesnar - held the kneebar too long
Big Nog - ripped his arm out of its socket

Palhare has 2 that I know of, please let me know if I missed any:
Drwal - held leg lock too long, caused injury
Pierce - held a leg lock too long, caused injury
Shields - held a kimura too long, eye gouging
And some late holds in ADCC competition

I'm not defending Palhares except to say he's dim and therefore too dangerous to let him continue fighting in sanctioned sports events. But Mir is dirty in his own way and doesn't get enough criticism for it.

This is the kinda stuff that's getting ridiculous. Big Nog didn't tap until AFTER his arm was broken, Sylvia never tapped at all and was trying to slam Frank after Herb Dean had already stopped the fight. Mir let go of Lesnar as soon as Mazagatti got off his ass to stop the fight (and as such, that one's Steve's fault). As for Traven:

In the case of the Roberto Traven match, when I approached, kicked and punched him into a sitting position against the cage he presented his arm to me in what I looked as an opportunity. With the force of my body and hip thrust I fell to the side with his arm in an arm bar position and broke his elbow unfortunately. The experience was surreal.

None of the injuries Frank has caused have been by something "dirty" such as holding a submission too long. They've been due to either the opponent not tapping in time, the ref not stopping it like they should, or in Traven's case a bad position.

The only one you can maybe blame on Frank there is Traven and I can't find a video/gif of that fight to see it for myself. The others, he let go when the ref stepped in and as such he did nothing wrong. If his opponent doesn't tap, that's their choice. They know the dangers of that when you're in a joint lock and you can't expect him to let go and give up winning the fight because his opponent wouldn't tap. That's utterly ridiculous. And if the ref doesn't step in, that's not something Frank can control. If he lets go and the ref wasn't paying attention and hadn't noticed the tap (this has happened before) he could lose that guaranteed victory and possibly the fight.

Palhares, on the other hand, holds submissions after the referee steps in. Referees have had to pry him off his opponents because he won't let go and that has caused injuries.

People need to realize that it's not the injuries themselves that are getting everybody up in arms over Palhares. It's the fact that those injuries are caused after he held the submission after the ref stepped in. Nowhere in Frank's history can you point to a situation similar to that and the fact that people are trying so desperately to make the comparison is mind boggling to me.

 

[STARSCREAM]

Agree with op, Paul Harris holds on too long don't know why if its intentionally being a jerk or just adrenaline. Either way its a party foul

 

[dakimbo]

Let me help you here.

Number of fighters injured by Frank Mir subs because he held them too long: 0 (Sylvia didn't tap, Nog didn't tap until after his arm was broken, and Kongo never tapped at all).
Number of fighters injured by Rousimar Palhares subs because he held them too long: at least 1 (Mike Pierce suffered a sprained MCL and torn ankle ligament due to Palhares holding that heel hook, source here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxS_zw_ki6Y#t=098)

Prove that injury was the result of the heel hook. Fighters go into fights with injuries all the time, so can you prove that Pierce didn't go into that fight with a torn MCL? Or that he didn't tear it at some other point in the fight?

Nope, didn't think so.

Mir, meanwhile, has injured a whopping FIVE fighters with his subs and Dana's fan boys think it's just a coincidence.