Pacquiao beat 9 undefeated fighters. Mayweather?

[LangfordBarrow]

Manny was the same fighter. He got caught by Marquez who he ALWAYS had trouble with. If the 3rd Marquez fight is scored correctly the Floyd fight might not even have been as highly anticipated. He lost a decision to Bradley which is widely regarded as one of the worst decisions of all time. Unfortunately because of that loss he had to rebuild himself up, you can’t justify fighting the top fighter in the world coming off a loss, no matter how much bullshit it was.

Then when he got slept, which is his own fault being careless, he had to rebuild. Let’s not act like he was some different fighter back then. He wasn’t stopping people after Cotto. His power didn’t translate as much as people thought it did. He was the same fighter that was always going to have trouble with Floyd

The same FW he always was fighting WWs...

 

[LangfordBarrow]

Manny is one of my favourite fighters of all time. I can’t stand Floyd. However, I would say Floyd is the better fighter. That doesn’t detract from what Manny has done. Manny is a legend and one of the greats. In his prime he was the most exciting fighter around and a joy to watch. Even past prime he is still a force.

I think Floyd has the better style but Manny's resume is tougher. Including the big win he just earned. Conor and Tenshin were sideshows in comparison.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

It not happening earlier is on both of their shoulders not just one or the other. The fact remains that Floyd is older and didnt wait for Manny to fall off of some cliff before he fought him. Hed been knocked out prior to JMM doing it also. He also easily beat 3 good opponents afterwards.

It would be disingenuous to include Manny's fights before he teamed up with Roach.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

I'm not saying Pac would have won but if Floyd had taken up the challenge when Pac was at his sparkling best, imagine that. A victory would have been Ray/Tommy level. Anyway, we've all saturated this debate and pretty much know everyone's opinion.
Btw this would be the perfect swansong for Pac.. but they rarely exist in boxing.

Only a Mayweather rematch makes sense if they can manage it. I hope he doesn't look to cash out with a money fight against Spence or Crawford.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

Fuck um both.

Floyd is even older than he is. If Pacs losing steps Floyds losing more.

Birthday age and physical age are two different things. That would be the same mistake as ranking Mayweather based only on the names in his resume without taking the context of the fights into consideration.

 

[PUO3]

Are you saying that Manny should be the favorite if they fight again? That Manny beat Thurman at this stage of his career just adds to his legacy.

I think Manny would be favored slightly if they fought right now.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

Things have to be put into context.

Mayweather used an IV infusion of saline solution (saltwater) and vitamins after the weigh-in and also after USADA collection agents had arrived to take samples for testing. IV infusion's are neither inherently prohibited, nor are they illegal. The main reasoning for prohibiting IV usage over 100ml per 12 hours is that it can be used to mask PED usage. In Mayweather's case, USADA already took samples before he used the IV. If Mayweather's intention was to use the IV to mask PED usage, then it was pointless. If the collection agents had arrived after the IV was used, then undoubtedly the TUE would have been rejected and Mayweather would have been sanctioned.

In comparison, Pacquiao also attempted to obtain a TUE in fight week. His team requested a TUE to allow a painkiller injection on fight night for his shoulder. This was rejected as the "injury" to his shoulder had not previously been disclosed to USADA or NSAC.

The likes of USADA and VADA aren't perfect, but the idea that they would be a party to giving one athlete and advantage over another is beyond ridiculous. Catching either Mayweather or Pacquiao or both using PEDs would have been a dream scenario for USADA.

I don't think either guy was on PEDs but by your description it sounds like Floyd packed on a lot of weight after weighing in and Manny fought with a painful injury. That's something to consider in the context of the outcome of the fight.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

May haters are so adorable.

And historical boxing fans are so picky.

 

[PUO3]

Thought that was a rule. Fighter bashing, etc. Seems to be entirely okay though.

Its like herding cats. Ill toss out the warning and if folks hang themselves so be it.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

I think Manny would be favored slightly if they fought right now.

I'd probably still bet on Mayweather but it has been a long time for him since he's fought a quality opponent. Manny might be more tuned up but Mayweather still has the size and style.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

Floyd was 38 when he beat Pac, thats pretty old for a fighter who relies on speed and reflexes. Would Pac have been better 3 or 4 years prior to the fight? Sure. But Floyd wouldn't be 38 either. Both fighters got older.

Pac is the guy that relied more on his physical attributes. Mayweather has the style that's conducive to longevity.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

Pac fanatics will never give floyd credit. If Floyd KO'd manny in 2008 there would be a whole nother excuse and whole other group of posts discrediting that win.

It's not to discredit the win, or to badmouth Mayweather, you just have to take the context into account. If we're talking head to head matchup then Floyd gets the nod. Ranking them by resumé though and I'd give Pac the nod.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

Floyd was just on another level. Doesn't diminish what Pac was, Floyd was just more talented. He clowned Marquez, who was Pacs biggest rival. He fought fresher versions of the majority of their common opponents too.

JMM is probably the best fighter on his resumé that adds the least to his legacy.

 

[Breaducce]

The cliff notes of this thread are as follows.

There can be an argument that Pac is ranked ahead of Mayweather all time when you use criteria that favours all of achievements and disregards his set backs, and weaknesses and Mayweathers accomplishments.

And let me call Bullshit on all of these extremist Pac stans begging for a rematch with Mayweather, pretending like a rematch would settle the debate ( in there minds) between the two fighters, when almost EVERY Pac loss was met with some B.S. excuse. Even the Marquez KO, I remember some Pac stans calling it a lucky punch. And they have done nothing but use their biased favoritism to minimize May's win over Pac because they fought four years ago. So you better believe that May can not truly win in their minds regardless of the outcome of a rematch between the two fighters because if he were to defeat Pac again in a rematch an even more propped up narrative of Pac being passed his prime would be used to minimize the win. However, if Pac was to win Pac would be given all of the credit regardless of them being further away from their primes than their first fight. Outside of money I do not see what the significant gain May would have to re-match and defeat Pac because pretty much all sensible Boxing experts and fans have May ahead of Pac all time and based on past behavior May could defeat Pac 10 times in a row and their would be 10 different excuses from his fans to explain away the loss and minimize Mayweather's win.

 

[Breaducce]

Pac has the better wins, you have to also consider that with their WW wins over similar opponents Pac is a tiny WW. Same goes for their head to head, that alongside with it not taking place in their primes is why it isn't ranked in Mayweather's top 5 wins. Then you use weight divisions, undefeated fighters and wins over future HOF's but Pac is ahead in all of these stats apart from compubox, makebelieve match ups and PPV sales which I am going to disregard.

I do agree that Pac obviously has a lot more setbacks and his losses do bring his standings down and the reason why it's hard to rank between the 2. I personally don't put as much merit into loses as others may do which is why I would probably have Pac slightly ahead. However, it would be close either way and there is definitely a solid argument to be made either way.

You have to take both wins and loses into account and when you do Mayweather's overall resume and legacy is clearly better than Pacs. There is a risk to going up in weight and that is loses , May did it and his record is unblemished and Pac's is not and that is significant when considering both fighters careers and that is not even considering that May handed Pac one of his multiple career loses. Also, a loss to a fighter like Horn is not a good luck on Pacs resume and the fact that he lost his legacy war to his rival in dramatic fashion also cannot be ignored.

Now Pac has amazing achievements titles in 8 different weight classes, defeated numerous champions and HOF fighters, remains competitive today with the current elite WW, but again you have to measure that against his set backs and that is why I just don't see how you can rank him above Mayweather.

Their head to head fight may not be in May's top five wins but it is still very relevant to any comparison between the two as BOTH fighters were passed their primes and May is actually the older fighter and still defeated and neutralized Pac. Also, if the fact that them being out of their primes gives an excuse to totally disregard the outcome of their fight than there is absolutely no point in to two having a rematch.

PPV sales speak to the fighters ability to market themselves to the public and generate interest and the fact that Mayweather has all the records in this regard should not be disregarded.

Also, with regard to common opponents the fact is Mayweather is unblemished and Pac is not, so my point with regard to asking who on Pac's resume could you see defeating Mayweather was to illustrate that despite bias most fans know that Mayweather remains undefeated fighting all of prime Pac's opponents, but the same cannot be said if you switch this around to Pac.

 

[Seano]

You gave every round to Mayweather?

Don't really recall but we're splitting hairs, no? IT was a dominant performance by Floyd in a fight that wasn't close at all.

 

[Seano]

By cherry picking. JMM and even Manny himself are prime examples.

Name one fighter that would have been accused of cherry picking for fighting Pacquiao and Marquez.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

Don't really recall but we're splitting hairs, no? IT was a dominant performance by Floyd in a fight that wasn't close at all.

As long as we're clear it wasn't a shutout. Floyd did clearly win.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

Name one fighter that would have been accused of cherry picking for fighting Pacquiao and Marquez.

Let me put it this way. Mayweather against prime DLH, Trinidad, Quartey, Hearns, Leonard, etc... that were legit WWs would have been more impressive wins. JMM and Pac may rate higher than those guys but they are natural FWs. They aren't cherries but JMM got tricked into giving up a big size advantage and Pac didn't get the fight until he was KOd and slowed down from his prime. Just like Leonard cherry picked the Hagler fight at the right time with a lot of concessions.

 

[Scott Stapp]

Came in overweight against Marquez, caught with an IV against Manny. Pretty cut and dry if you ask me.