Overrated ATG’s

PHATV said:
Pryor-999-620x387.jpg

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I like how he hid the right behind his jab and he can actually box, Porter reminds me of him a lot only Porter is a sloppy mess compared to Pryor.
 
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JayE said:
He was known as being one of the better movers of all time, he soundly outboxed numerous all-time greats and he's easily one of the best athletes in the sport's history. Saying, in any context, that his offense was his defense or that he was particularly reliant on his chin and power (when he beyond elite in many other categories) is a ridiculous description of Sugar Ray Robinson.
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Thank you so much, I didn't know that about Robinson, you're a true scholar with the ability to go into depth.
With that being said, I insist that Robinson liked to use his offense as defense and his feet to get him out of trouble,... "Take one to give one" mentality. Only he would give 3 instead of 1 due to his athletic ability.

Btw, Robinson admitted himself that he wasn't interested in slipping, blocking, etc., because it bored him.
 
Pryor defense was his offense he would leave his hands low but would just punch at you non stop.

Fun to watch, but I would have love to see him fight Roberto Duran.

But yes you are correct he is an overrated ATG if you are talking about resume and accomplishment, but one amazing offensive slugger.
 
defjaam said:
Thank you so much, I didn't know that about Robinson, you're a true scholar with the ability to go into depth.
With that being said, I insist that Robinson liked to use his offense as defense and his feet to get him out of trouble,... "Take one to give one" mentality. Only he would give 3 instead of 1 due to his athletic ability.

Btw, Robinson admitted himself that he wasn't interested in slipping, blocking, etc., because it bored him.
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I still think it's selling his overall ability quite short to characterize him like that, but fair enough.
 
TapSnapBreak said:
For what it's worth I read a bleacher report a few years ago of the https://bleacherreport.com/articles/796919-top-10-most-overrated-fighters-of-all-time
10 most "overrated all time greats"

Quick cliffs

10
Manny Pacquiao
9
Gerald McClellan
8
Joe Frazier
7
Muhammad Ali
6
Felix Trinidad
5
Timothy Bradley
4
Aaron Pryor
3
Rocky Marciano
2
Oscar De La Hoya
1
Mike Tyson

Btw crappy list
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Agreed that's it's a poor list. No one considers Bradley or McClellan ATGs, for example.

In a weird way I actually think Oscar has become a bit underrated over time. Someone else made this point in this thread I think, but fought absolutely everyone and was only blown out when he went too high up in weight against a much bigger ATG (Hopkins) and when he was dead at a weight against a prime ATG in Pac.
 
ironfist05 said:
I really genuinely hate saying it too, cause I love watching Foster and think really highly of his abilities.
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Foster is amazing he is one of Futch’s best which is amazing considering all of the amazing fighters he crafted.
 
TapSnapBreak said:
For what it's worth I read a bleacher report a few years ago of the https://bleacherreport.com/articles/796919-top-10-most-overrated-fighters-of-all-time
10 most "overrated all time greats"

Quick cliffs

10
Manny Pacquiao
9
Gerald McClellan
8
Joe Frazier
7
Muhammad Ali
6
Felix Trinidad
5
Timothy Bradley
4
Aaron Pryor
3
Rocky Marciano
2
Oscar De La Hoya
1
Mike Tyson

Btw crappy list
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Tim Bradley was never considred an ATG let alone in 2011 that writer is garbage
 
Seano said:
Rocky Marciano. The guy really has a pretty shallow resume. People will say guys like Holmes and Spinks were not great wins for Tyson but then rate Maciano for BARELY beating Charles, Walcott and Moore. All he really has going for him is that he never lost but it'd be about like if Tyson had retired after he beat Holmes.
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Fixed that for you.

Marciano's record was due to him not fighting for the belt until his 43rd fight and then retiring after just a handful of defenses.

Don't get me wrong, Rocky is a "special" fighter, like Wilder. But no where near an ATG.
 
djacobox372 said:
Fixed that for you.

Marciano's record was due to him not fighting for the belt until his 43rd fight and then retiring after just a handful of defenses.

Don't get me wrong, Rocky is a "special" fighter, like Wilder. But no where near an ATG.
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He stopped all his best opponents, how is that barely beating them?
 
No mention Salvador Sanchez yet? He gets put way too high in All-Time greats lists by fans of his just because he died young -- and his fans project his resume up to a level that he never achieved. I've seen him ranked in the 20-30 range of All-Time... even p4p... which is absurd.

He had a few great wins and was a great talent but didn't have the longevity or amount of scalps to lay claim to such high standing. And fwiw i have Floyd, Manny, Duran, as top 10-30 All-Timers. Even in terms of p4p. That's the level i'm talking bout. Peak performance AND longevity.
 
djacobox372 said:
Don't get me wrong, Rocky is a "special" fighter, like Wilder. But no where near an ATG.
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Huh? We wouldn't even be having this conversation right now if most didn't think Marciano was an ATG. All of the historians that are worth their salt rate Marciano as an ATG (all-time top 10 HW) and so do media publications like The Ring. Bert Sugar had him rated at #6 in 2007 in his greatest HWs of all-time list. I've actually never seen a credible source produce a list that didn't have Marciano in their top 10 at heavyweight. So, to deny Marciano a spot as an ATG you would have to be able to confidently name 10 'greater' (more dominant) heavyweights with deeper résumés to go with it.
 
Seano said:
Rocky Marciano. The guy really has a pretty shallow resume. People will say guys like Holmes and Spinks were not great wins for Tyson but then rate Maciano for beating Charles, Walcott and Moore. All he really has going for him is that he never lost but it'd be about like if Tyson had retired after he beat Holmes.
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Pryor's biggest win was against Aruguello who was 2 weight classes above his best weight and one weight class above his ceiling weight. See? You can shit on anybody. Good job. I think Pryor is a handful for anyone at 140, for the record, but don't be hypocrite and sell him while looking down your nose at Rocky. What have you done?

Nobody is under the illusion that Marciano has the resume of Manny Pacquiao, but a lot of the criticism against Rocky's opposition came AFTER he demolished them or after he retired and guys like Ali cam along. Louis was past it, sure, but at the time he only lost to Schmeling in 1935 and then Charles during his twlight years comeback. A lot of people at the time weren't sure Louis was done for. Let's not use our hindsight with such sanctified piety. Remember Tito Trinidad was a 3 to favourite over Bhop, and looking back that does't seem right. Let's suspend this sense of all knowing afterthought from the comfortable location of our arm chairs and touch screens. Fact is Marciano started boxing at 23 and had no natural talent, but he had certain intangibles that are harder to qualify. Charles and Walcott were NOT at their peak, but they were at the tail end of their primes (like GGG when Canelo finally got in the ring with him). Find me a fighter who started at 23 and who ran through any division at any point in its history to become champ and defend undisputed for half a decade. Any close fight he WILLINGLY gives rematches to, and then beats them more convincingly the second time. Rocky was not fighting in the age of 4 belts and cherry picking. He fouht EVERYONE he could. There are big names today people oversell but these certain fighters aren't lining up everybody. They are saying that such and such a fighter plays on the other side of the street or some shit. Oh, good. He gets a pass for not fighting him. Rocky fought anyone he could fight. Sometimes twice. Then he retires undefeated as a pressure fighter who was, what, 32? Pressure fighters are on borrowed time after 30. It's the way it is. He left when he knew he had nothing left. You want him to stick around and box when he doesn't have it i him just to see him fight Floyd Patterson or Sonny? Sure, and we see what happens to guys like Roy Jones. Nothing to prove there. Boxing fans are the worst. Thr absolute worst. Impossible to impress. You know they say Moore was a LHW, but Rocky wasn't more than a CW. Moore also went on a great LHW run after he lost to Rocky, so he couldn't have been past it. He sure wasn't shot. Please. Most esteemed coaches, Manny Stewart for example, gave Rocky tremendous credit because he had certain qualities all trainers with the eye can spot. I won't slander you and say you can't see what great trainers do, but you are off the mark about Rocky. Great fighters and trainers who aren't duped by records and presentation saw what Rocky was. You aren't seeing something they aren't.

For the record, you are listening to straight up retards if you believe the idiots that say Spinks and Holmes weren't great wins for Tyson. Larry Holmes is widely regarded as a top 10 HW all time. He came back after his Tyson loss and performed very well in the early 90's peforming as well or better against opponents that Lennox Lewis and Mike Tyson struggled with (Mercer and Holyfield). Spinks is one of the best LHW's of all time who beat Holmes twice. Holmes most people put in their top 10 HW's. Holmes is a head to head nightmare for pretty much every heavyweight. Holmes who was UNDEFEATED at the time. Who have you been talking to for boxing opinions? They are idiots if they believe the nonsense shit you referenced.
 
eternaldarkness said:
Canelo is the most overrated fighter of modern times. Gift decisions and bottles up against big punchers.
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Nothing would make me happier in the entire history of boxing than if GGG summoned the spirit of Juan Manuel Marquez and put Canelo to sleep. Finally getting his redemption.
 
eternaldarkness said:
Canelo is the most overrated fighter of modern times. Gift decisions and bottles up against big punchers.
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This is one of the stupidest things Ive read on this forum.
 
eternaldarkness said:
Fuck off seano. Marciano was a fist fighting god.
Undefeated in a great era of boxing. You can't compare Holmes at that point of his career to Charles or Moore or Walcott, they were still the top of the game.
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Charles was farther gone in his career than Holmes. Holmes was still a factor in the HW division well into the 90s. Marciano fought in a weak era of HW boxing. What he achieved in his roughly 10 fights at the world level was impressive, but his resume is not deep and not littered with exceptional wins, either. It's a shame his injury issues prevented him from fighting some of the up and comers from the next generation. This isn't a criticism of his ability, but of his resume (and that's not really his fault).
 
deucesarewild said:
Pryor's biggest win was against Aruguello who was 2 weight classes above his best weight and one weight class above his ceiling weight. See? You can shit on anybody. Good job. I think Pryor is a handful for anyone at 140, for the record, but don't be hypocrite and sell him while looking down your nose at Rocky. What have you done?

Nobody is under the illusion that Marciano has the resume of Manny Pacquiao, but a lot of the criticism against Rocky's opposition came AFTER he demolished them or after he retired and guys like Ali cam along. Louis was past it, sure, but at the time he only lost to Schmeling in 1935 and then Charles during his twlight years comeback. A lot of people at the time weren't sure Louis was done for. Let's not use our hindsight with such sanctified piety. Remember Tito Trinidad was a 3 to favourite over Bhop, and looking back that does't seem right. Let's suspend this sense of all knowing afterthought from the comfortable location of our arm chairs and touch screens. Fact is Marciano started boxing at 23 and had no natural talent, but he had certain intangibles that are harder to qualify. Charles and Walcott were NOT at their peak, but they were at the tail end of their primes (like GGG when Canelo finally got in the ring with him). Find me a fighter who started at 23 and who ran through any division at any point in its history to become champ and defend undisputed for half a decade. Any close fight he WILLINGLY gives rematches to, and then beats them more convincingly the second time. Rocky was not fighting in the age of 4 belts and cherry picking. He fouht EVERYONE he could. There are big names today people oversell but these certain fighters aren't lining up everybody. They are saying that such and such a fighter plays on the other side of the street or some shit. Oh, good. He gets a pass for not fighting him. Rocky fought anyone he could fight. Sometimes twice. Then he retires undefeated as a pressure fighter who was, what, 32? Pressure fighters are on borrowed time after 30. It's the way it is. He left when he knew he had nothing left. You want him to stick around and box when he doesn't have it i him just to see him fight Floyd Patterson or Sonny? Sure, and we see what happens to guys like Roy Jones. Nothing to prove there. Boxing fans are the worst. Thr absolute worst. Impossible to impress. You know they say Moore was a LHW, but Rocky wasn't more than a CW. Moore also went on a great LHW run after he lost to Rocky, so he couldn't have been past it. He sure wasn't shot. Please. Most esteemed coaches, Manny Stewart for example, gave Rocky tremendous credit because he had certain qualities all trainers with the eye can spot. I won't slander you and say you can't see what great trainers do, but you are off the mark about Rocky. Great fighters and trainers who aren't duped by records and presentation saw what Rocky was. You aren't seeing something they aren't.

For the record, you are listening to straight up retards if you believe the idiots that say Spinks and Holmes weren't great wins for Tyson. Larry Holmes is widely regarded as a top 10 HW all time. He came back after his Tyson loss and performed very well in the early 90's peforming as well or better against opponents that Lennox Lewis and Mike Tyson struggled with (Mercer and Holyfield). Spinks is one of the best LHW's of all time who beat Holmes twice. Holmes most people put in their top 10 HW's. Holmes is a head to head nightmare for pretty much every heavyweight. Holmes who was UNDEFEATED at the time. Who have you been talking to for boxing opinions? They are idiots if they believe the nonsense shit you referenced.
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*Correction: Holmes wasn't undefeated when Mike Tyson beat him. Spinks had already defeated him twice, and even before that he had questionable decision wins against Witherspoon and Williams. He had past his best a long time ago by the time Mike got him,.. So I'd say its a good win, not a great win. As you pointed out, he still went on to have competitive fights with Holyfield and McCall, and took Mercer to boxing school... Even at the age of 52 he handled Butterbean. Those things put Tyson's 4-round-destruction over him in a different light.
But I don't agree with your "in hindsight" argument. That's how we evaluate things. That's what you did in your comment too, by the way.

As far as Emanuel Steward goes: He was also known for controversial opinions. Like saying that Jack Johnson is remembered for his arrogance, not so much for his boxing skills... Manny simply liked punchers and boxers who fought aggressive. That's why he said that Tommy Hearns would KO Mayweather Jr., even though boxers, that were much lesser than Mayweather, went the distance with Hearns.
 
defjaam said:
*Correction: Holmes wasn't undefeated when Mike Tyson beat him. Spinks had already defeated him twice, and even before that he had questionable decision wins against Witherspoon and Williams. He had past his best a long time ago by the time Mike got him,.. So I'd say its a good win, not a great win. As you pointed out, he still went on to have competitive fights with Holyfield and McCall, and took Mercer to boxing school... Even at the age of 52 he handled Butterbean. Those things put Tyson's 4-round-destruction over him in a different light.
But I don't agree with your "in hindsight" argument. That's how we evaluate things. That's what you did in your comment too, by the way.

As far as Emanuel Steward goes: He was also known for controversial opinions. Like saying that Jack Johnson is remembered for his arrogance, not so much for his boxing skills... Manny simply liked punchers and boxers who fought aggressive. That's why he said that Tommy Hearns would KO Mayweather Jr., even though boxers, that were much lesser than Mayweather, went the distance with Hearns.
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Thanks for the reminder about Holmes. I knew that he was beaten twice and mis-typed. Lots of top guys have questionable wins. No need to open that can. Manny's controversial opinions? Like him saying back in 2012 or earlier that Tyson Fury would take Wlad's place as best HW? The guys has the eye and knows what he sees. Yeah Manny, and many others have a consensus opinion that Marciano is in the top all time HW's. Not controversial. You don't have to agree with them. I don't care. Well-established fighters get looked down on by neckbeard losers whose courage is confined to the chair in which they sit while they type their criticisms and have absurd standards to which they don't hold themselves.
 
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