Overeem was killing Shogun on the feet.

[moreorless87]

Shogun actually got a lot better in his UFC career to be honest. His boxing improved ten fold.

From the Liddell fight to the second Hendo fight was his prime.

Hendo took his chin which was one of his best weapons. He took shots to give them.

In pride he was sloppy but he was so durable and athletic people couldn't handle it. In his UFC run he developed into a technical mt sniper with a beautiful flow. It was cool to see. He was a brawler that learned from Wand at the end of the day. Wand is super underrated too he's the best lhw ever imo

I'd say in Pride he was more aggressive than he was sloppy, always on the front foot chasing opponents down standing but he was pretty accurate as well. After the couple of ACL injuries I think you saw him shift style, reduced his focus on grappling(which I'd geuss caused a lot of the injuries ala Cain) and became a more technical/patent MT fighter standing.

The problem he had IMHO was that after the 3rd ACL injury he started to loose his mobility, he couldn't pull off the style he did vs Chuck and Machida anymore with the rapid forward/backward movement and had to stand toe to toe again. You watch those matches and its the rushing in/out that really makes the style work.

 

[faustian]

Yeah. Shogun was always overrated.

Let's see... had arguably the single greatest year in MMA history at age 23, became #1 205er in the world two different times in two different premier orgs 5 years apart while suffering potentially career-ending injuries those 5 years in between, remained top 10 in the second org for nearly a decade of which like 90% was spent past his prime, still ranked today nearly 15 years later

Definitely overrated because there's so many other 205ers in MMA history with superior accomplishments at the very highest level

 

[tramendous]

I honestly think that Shogun's ground and pound is some of the best ever. TBH, he might have been even better than he was if he had a wrestling-based gameplan

Cant wrestle with those knees

 

[faustian]

A lot of his Pride success was via grappling, a mix of that and very aggressive striking. I'd guess he shifted away from the grappling due to the knee injuries.

Also the unified rules took away Shogun's most lethal tools and with that his primary motivation for getting guys to the ground

 

[dissectingaorticaneurysm]

Yeah. Shogun was always overrated.

And this is more about LHW Reem being underrated. His striking was phenomenal as a lanklet. He turned into a slow plodding ogre with every horse he devoured, but the skinny Reem was so fast and agile. Dat chin tho

 

[CrimsonFan]

I'd say in Pride he was more aggressive than he was sloppy, always on the front foot chasing opponents down standing but he was pretty accurate as well. After the couple of ACL injuries I think you saw him shift style, reduced his focus on grappling(which I'd geuss caused a lot of the injuries ala Cain) and became a more technical/patent MT fighter standing.

The problem he had IMHO was that after the 3rd ACL injury he started to loose his mobility, he couldn't pull off the style he did vs Chuck and Machida anymore with the rapid forward/backward movement and had to stand toe to toe again. You watch those matches and its the rushing in/out that really makes the style work.

His boxing was straight up sloppy back then. He definatly improved his technique and even trained with Roach in his UFC career. Roach claimed he couldn't even throw a proper punch when they met

 

[moreorless87]

His boxing was straight up sloppy back then. He definatly improved his technique and even trained with Roach in his UFC career. Roach claimed he couldn't even throw a proper punch when they met

He was very aggressive/wild and often looked to depend on his chin but he was still a dangerous accurate puncher in Pride, watch the fight with Rogerio and he lands a lot on arguably the best technical boxer in the division.

Again I think the real shift in the UFC wasn't really boxing technique, it was a focus on movement and timing, that rapid in/out movement is what Chuck and Machida couldn't cope with but after the second Machida fight he couldn't really pull if off anymore and had to go back to trading close in but without the cardio/grappling of his Pride days.

 

[CrimsonFan]

He was very aggressive/wild and often looked to depend on his chin but he was still a dangerous accurate puncher in Pride, watch the fight with Rogerio and he lands a lot on arguably the best technical boxer in the division.

Again I think the real shift in the UFC wasn't really boxing technique, it was a focus on movement and picking out combos, that rapid in/out movement is what Chuck and Machida couldn't cope with but after the second Machida fight he couldn't really pull if off anymore and had to go back to trading close in.

Shogun's my favourite dude. I don't need to go rewatch that fight.

He got dropped hard in that fight. He won by top control and gnp. Also had a knockdown if I remember correctly.

Yeah his movement won him fights against Chuck and Machida.. but his improved boxing won him the fights with Te Huna, Forrest, and everyone else hes beaten since. His technique has gotten alot better since pride is all I'm saying. Makes sense the longer you train the better you get. Hes just not as athletic and mobile anymore

I think Shogun from a few years ago beats his old self

 

[moreorless87]

Shogun's my favourite dude. I don't need to go rewatch that fight.

He got dropped hard in that fight. He won by top control and gnp. Also had a knockdown if I remember correctly.

Yeah his movement won him fights against Chuck and Machida.. but his improved boxing won him the fights with Te Huna, Forrest, and everyone else hes beaten since. His technique has gotten alot better since pride is all I'm saying. Makes sense the longer you train the better you get. Hes just not as athletic and mobile anymore

I think Shogun from a few years ago beats his old self

He got dropped and took a good deal of punishment but he also dropped Rogerio and dished out a good deal of punishment, standing it was very close with the grappling pushing the fight in his favour. As with Wanderlei I think people mistake a fighter being very aggressive with lacking technique, I mean Shogun did sometimes get wild and inaccurate in Pride as Wand did but both men could and did throw a lot of very accurate punchs as well.

I don't think Shogun's basic boxing really shifted that much in the UFC, what shifted was how he employed it looking to time punchs more and using movement for defence rather than just chasing opponents down constantly.

The Shogun of a few years ago would get wrecked by the Pride version IMHO, probably taken down and pounded out but also at a clear disadvantage standing in chin, cardio and speed. He's stayed relevant in the division because its been in steep decline since the early part of this decade. If Lil Nog of 2005 for example fought the Shogun of their second fight I think he'd TKO him inside of a few mins.

Record wise he clearly didn't have judging in his favour in the UFC, obviously should have beaten Machida both times, Should probably have drawn with Hendo and had a case for beating Gus.

 

[SalvadorAllende]

Let's see... had arguably the single greatest year in MMA history at age 23, became #1 205er in the world two different times in two different premier orgs 5 years apart while suffering potentially career-ending injuries those 5 years in between, remained top 10 in the second org for nearly a decade of which like 90% was spent past his prime, still ranked today nearly 15 years later

Definitely overrated because there's so many other 205ers in MMA history with superior accomplishments at the very highest level

 

[NaughtyBoy]

Yeah, he was winning until he got knocked the fuck out...

 

[CrimsonFan]

He got dropped and took a good deal of punishment but he also dropped Rogerio and dished out a good deal of punishment, standing it was very close with the grappling pushing the fight in his favour. As with Wanderlei I think people mistake a fighter being very aggressive with lacking technique, I mean Shogun did sometimes get wild and inaccurate in Pride as Wand did but both men could and did throw a lot of very accurate punchs as well.

I don't think Shogun's basic boxing really shifted that much in the UFC, what shifted was how he employed it looking to time punchs more and using movement for defence rather than just chasing opponents down constantly.

The Shogun of a few years ago would get wrecked by the Pride version IMHO, probably taken down and pounded out but also at a clear disadvantage standing in chin, cardio and speed. He's stayed relevant in the division because its been in steep decline since the early part of this decade. If Lil Nog of 2005 for example fought the Shogun of their second fight I think he'd TKO him inside of a few mins.

Record wise he clearly didn't have judging in his favour in the UFC, obviously should have beaten Machida both times, Should probably have drawn with Hendo and had a case for beating Gus.

Yeah I disagree bigtime. He didn't beat gus either he clapped at the decision

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

A lot of his Pride success was via grappling, a mix of that and very aggressive striking. I'd guess he shifted away from the grappling due to the knee injuries.

Shogun used his wrestling a lot when he was younger and ran into someone who had striking on a similar level to his or better, Overeem x2, Lil Nog and Diabate all lost due to Shogun's takedowns and ground game. He didn't grapple nearly as much after his knees got all messed up.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

Shogun actually got a lot better in his UFC career to be honest. His boxing improved ten fold.

From the Liddell fight to the second Hendo fight was his prime.

Hendo took his chin which was one of his best weapons. He took shots to give them.

In pride he was sloppy but he was so durable and athletic people couldn't handle it. In his UFC run he developed into a technical mt sniper with a beautiful flow. It was cool to see. He was a brawler that learned from Wand at the end of the day. Wand is super underrated too he's the best lhw ever imo

His boxing got better but his grappling and cardio were much worse. He almost had two primes, one from the start of his career till his first knee injury before the Forrest fight then from Liddell to Machida 2 where he blew out his knee again.

 

[WouldNotBang]

Damn lol, has Overeem been knocked out more than anyone over the years?

 

[moreorless87]

Yeah I disagree bigtime. He didn't beat gus either he clapped at the decision

I wouldn't say he clearly beat Gus in the fashion I think he clearly beat Machida the first time but a 29-28 decision would not have been a robbery either.

Really you watch Shogun vs Chuck and Machida and I don't think its a masterclass of conventional boxing technique, whats changed relative to his Pride days is I think much more movement and timing. Pride Shogun would push forward relentlessly and mix in grappling, UFC title Shogun focused more on rushing in landing shots and backing up for defence.

He did definitely become more tactical, Pride Shogun wouldn't have looked to take Machida's legs apart or counter his straight but I think that's mostly a change in gameplan and movement not in a shift in boxing ability. He wasn't just wind milling in Pride he was actually pretty accurate a lot of the time(the Nak fight being an exception) but his game ws typically throwing a few punchs, if they didn't hurt someone moving into the clinch and if that didn't land offence then looking for takedowns.

As mentioned above after the second Machida fight and the third knee injury he really didn't have the mobility to make his UFC title run style work anymore.

 

[TR1]

Uh yeah, Overeem often looked very good out of the gate

 

[X^flottigliaMAS]

Yes, shogun (Who i love to the max) was mainly a ground fighter. See matches with arona, overoid, diabete and so on

 

[Perrichet]

Yeah. Shogun was always overrated.

Yeah he’s overrated for adjusting and murdering Overeem

 

[Mixfight]

IMO this was the best, most seasoned,most skilled and most durable Shogun ever. Id take this Shogun over 2004 Shogun any day.