Ortega 2.0 is a myth

[fortheo]

Zombie is a beast, but he got completely outclassed in his fight with Aldo. Dont know why Sherdoggers always talk about that fight as if Aldo was lucky KZ was injured. Aldo was well on his way to win a UD and won every round up to that point. I just recently rewatched that fight and it still surprises why people have a different memory of that fight.

Indeed. Zombie was far too passive.

 

[Domitian]

Bet the house on Volk. At -155 this is great value.

 

[wildchild88]

He's improved, but not to 2.0 spec..

Maybe it's just me, but he appears quite hunkering and slow, he can pop out the occasional strike quite quickly, but not sure he's on Max's or Volk's level.

 

[Arkham's Notorious Geyser]

Pretty much everyone he's fought in his 23 fights not named Jose Aldo and Max Holloway. He has a lot of decisions, but he had a lot of very dominant rounds in those decisions. You could argue 10-8 rounds against hirota and young, dropped elkins multiple times, absolutely obliterated ufc lightweight mullarkey, crushed kennedy and mendes, as you pointed out. Before aldo and max, Volk was very dominant.

I wasn't saying that i think that scenario is most likely to happen against ortega. I was just saying, if they go to the ground, it will likely be Volk on top because he's the far better wrestler, and it will likely be near the cage because that's where he likes to work, and if anyone has followed volks career they'd know that if he establishes top position on people, he typically beats the shit out out of them.

I get what you're saying, I was mostly taking the piss out of that ONE comment in light of his recent decision streak, I can see him getting a finish overall, but I still think a decision is more likely.

Also there's PEOPLE, and there's elite fighters like Jose Aldo, and Max Holloway who he did almost nothing with when it came to wrestling, if memory serves correctly Max stood up almost immediately after every TD, and really wasn't controlled, GRANTED I know Ortega isn't elite like Max or Jose, but given the 2 year lay off from Max, and seeing how he seems to be getting ACTUAL training(In his words), I wouldn't write off his ability to surprise us when it comes to improvements in his grappling.

There's levels to this yeah, but I am very much interested to see how he performs against Volkanovski, on his side of things, I can pretty much already see him winning outside of getting KO'ed, but if there was EVER a fighter to test the improvements Ortega has made it's Volkanovski, and for that I'm interested to see what he does.

I know you personally aren't a fan of Ortega getting a shot after 1 win(I agree) but outside of Max Holloway who Volk already beat, there REALLY wasn't any other clear cut contender. I'm not even the biggest Ortega fan, but there was really no one else as far as I know. Zabit is likely calling it curtains, Kattar got the ever loving piss beat out of him, Giga is working his way up, who could they have given the shot too?

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

Ortega trained with Holloway and you can see the improvements.

 

[LetThemBleed]

Volk is a fucking bum, dude literally fought nobodies his whole carrier, except Max. BTW he lost his last fight.
So yeah expecting KO from Ortega and hope it will dig a grave to rugby boy carrier.

Bums like Mendes, and the FW Goat Aldo? Carrier?

 

[Coconutwater]

Ortega looked good against KZ because all KZ did for the entire fight was leap in 1-2s. KZ was super basic and predictable. He sorta always has been.

I think Ortega did improve, he was more patient and conservative in his exchanges against Zombie, while KZ just wanted to mix it up and as usual, not paying attention to every conceivable threat. Volk is savvier and not dumb enough to give Ortega opportunistic elbows, knees, or spinning shite, in that sense, the "new" Ortega doesn't have enough to beat Volk on a consistent basis, outside a hail mary submission or haymaker. It's Volk who is the more well-rounded, aggressive, and yet, defensively sound fighter.

 

[fortheo]

I get what you're saying, I was mostly taking the piss out of that ONE comment in light of his recent decision streak, I can see him getting a finish overall, but I still think a decision is more likely.

Also there's PEOPLE, and there's elite fighters like Jose Aldo, and Max Holloway who he did almost nothing with when it came to wrestling, if memory serves correctly Max stood up almost immediately after every TD, and really wasn't controlled, GRANTED I know Ortega isn't elite like Max or Jose, but given the 2 year lay off from Max, and seeing how he seems to be getting ACTUAL training(In his words), I wouldn't write off his ability to surprise us when it comes to improvements in his grappling.

There's levels to this yeah, but I am very much interested to see how he performs against Volkanovski, on his side of things, I can pretty much already see him winning outside of getting KO'ed, but if there was EVER a fighter to test the improvements Ortega has made it's Volkanovski, and for that I'm interested to see what he does.

I know you personally aren't a fan of Ortega getting a shot after 1 win(I agree) but outside of Max Holloway who Volk already beat, there REALLY wasn't any other clear cut contender. I'm not even the biggest Ortega fan, but there was really no one else as far as I know. Zabit is likely calling it curtains, Kattar got the ever loving piss beat out of him, Giga is working his way up, who could they have given the shot too?

Ortega is far more likely to accept being on his back than Aldo or Max are. I'm just saying if it hits the mat, I expect it to be with volk on top and ortega on the bottom and likely close to the fence. And I think Volk could do a lot of good work from top position like what tavarez did years ago, but we'll see.

My problem isn't with Ortega alone, or even him getting the title shot (although it may seem that way). He just receives my criticizism because he is the one profiting from the nearly stagant top 5. This all started when the UFC booked Max vs. Frankie instead of Max vs. Volk, which was the obvious fight to make at that time. Then it only exacerbated when they gave Max an instant rematch against volk. Then you had Zabit, Yair, and ortega fighting once every three years just to make it all one big cluster fuck. It's very hard for guys to make a better claim than Ortega when ortega and those around him barely fought for the past few years yet maintained their position in the division. So now Ortega, who was part of the problem, is now profitting from it. My problem isn't with ortega in particular, but with the underlying issue that him getting the title shot represents.

We have guys like Allen, Giga, Topuria, Evloev, and Mitchell Who all deserve steps up in competition, but it's nearly impossible for them because of the bottle neck at the top of the division.

 

[Reverse Baratoplata Sweep]

Bums like Mendes, and the FW Goat Aldo? Carrier?

Yap, post-juice Mendes (props to him he understood he cant compete without it and ran away).
Now go rewatch Aldo vs Volk: jab-run-run-run-jab-run-run-more-run, clinch for the last minute, repeat x3. (Except for a good jab-cross in 2nd)
And lets say they weren't Kamaru's jabs. Now look what massacre Yan did to Aldo and it was at bantam.
So yea those two fights with pensioners didn't show much.

But you got me with grammar police shit, so props to you. Here, have a picture:

 

[First Day UFC Intern]

I’m rooting for Ortega, even Ray Charles could see the improvements

Lol

 

[Coconutwater]

I think it's going to be enough to stun and hurt volk in to panickng to it down and getting caught in a sub.

I'm afraid of this happening, the only other person in the UFC adept at tossing up a quick submission via guillotine or any other choke is Kron Gracie. Both are masters of the guillotine and any other choke for that matter. It's the signature of Helio Gracie's lineage.

 

[GordoBarraBJJ]

I'm afraid of this happening, the only other person in the UFC adept at tossing up a quick submission via guillotine or any other choke is Kron Gracie. Both are masters of the guillotine and any other choke for that matter. It's the signature of Helio Gracie's lineage.

I think his size (length) will help him catch Volk coming in or over extending - which will cause Volk to panic takedown and leave something exposed.

 

[Arkham's Notorious Geyser]

Ortega is far more likely to accept being on his back than Aldo or Max are. I'm just saying if it hits the mat, I expect it to be with volk on top and ortega on the bottom and likely close to the fence. And I think Volk could do a lot of good work from top position like what tavarez did years ago, but we'll see.

My problem isn't with Ortega alone, or even him getting the title shot (although it may seem that way). He just receives my criticizism because he is the one profiting from the nearly stagant top 5. This all started when the UFC booked Max vs. Frankie instead of Max vs. Volk, which was the obvious fight to make at that time. Then it only exacerbated when they gave Max an instant rematch against volk. Then you had Zabit, Yair, and ortega fighting once every three years just to make it all one big cluster fuck. It's very hard for guys to make a better claim than Ortega when ortega and those around him barely fought for the past few years yet maintained their position in the division. So now Ortega, who was part of the problem, is now profitting from it. My problem isn't with ortega in particular, but with the underlying issue that him getting the title shot represents.

We have guys like Allen, Giga, Topuria, Evloev, and Mitchell Who all deserve steps up in competition, but it's nearly impossible for them because of the bottle neck at the top of the division.

My only real point of contention at this point would be Max getting an Instant rematch. We've seen people get rematches for LESS, as well as have fighters get title shots off of losses, for proof of that look no further than Masvidal vs Usman 2, Aldo vs Yan(Yeah yeah yeah Robbery to Marlon), and Romero vs Adesanya, there are many other instances, but in the case of Champions getting immediate title shots, I'm really not fully agreeing with Max getting any shade for it. This wasn't like Cody getting a rematch against TJ after a whopping 0 defenses, or like with Weili right now getting an immediate title shot after 1, let alone after getting murdered by Rose, Max Holloway has 3 title defenses under his belt, and while yeah his loss to Volkanovski was pretty cut and dry the first time around, in comparison to the examples mentioned, him getting a rematch is nowhere near as bad.

With that said I do agree with your overall sentiment that FW is in a bit of a weird limbo and bottleneck situation at the top mainly, but that in no way is primarily Max, Volkanovski, and Ortega's fault. If the top FW's were as active as the Middleweights we wouldn't be having this conversation, but you got people like Yair shitting the bed, and still maintaining his rank ALL because the UFC wanted Zabit to destroy him. You had Zabit ALSO managing to hold onto his ranking for the purpose of fast tracking him to a title shot as well. He lost his ranking not too long ago, but there were other factors and tom foolery contributing to the issue going on at FW. The only person from a Ranking perspective I feel for is Allen and that's mainly because he's the closest to getting a title shot.

Giga JUST entered the top 10, it's safe to say he wasn't nearly as effected as Allen was, same with Evloev, and same with Topuria. They've all just recently broke into the rankings, I get what you're saying, but again, it's not a one way street. Volkanovski, Ortega, and Max didn't do anything but fight who was put in front of them, some of the blame is certainly on how UFC tried to book the FW landscape with their blatant favoritism towards Zabit.

 

[fortheo]

My only real point of contention at this point would be Max getting an Instant rematch. We've seen people get rematches for LESS, as well as have fighters get title shots off of losses, for proof of that look no further than Masvidal vs Usman 2, Aldo vs Yan(Yeah yeah yeah Robbery to Marlon), and Romero vs Adesanya, there are many other instances, but in the case of Champions getting immediate title shots, I'm really not fully agreeing with Max getting any shade for it.

Yeah, the UFC does this often and I (along with many others) complain about it often. I lump the Max rematch in with all of unnecessary title fights that you just mentioned. Unfortunately, it's max that might suffer the most for it in the end.

This wasn't like Cody getting a rematch against TJ after a whopping 0 defenses, or like with Weili right now getting an immediate title shot after 1, let alone after getting murdered by Rose, Max Holloway has 3 title defenses under his belt, and while yeah his loss to Volkanovski was pretty cut and dry the first time around, in comparison to the examples mentioned, him getting a rematch is nowhere near as bad.

I get it, you're a max fan. To me, instant rematches are reserved for goats, and 3 title defences just isn't in that category for me. The other instance that warrants instant title matches are obviously controversial endings, and I don't think any sane person would argue that the first Volk vs. Max fight was controversial. I do agree with you that there have been far less warrented title shots in the past, though, but that doesn't make the Max rematch anymore necessary in my mind.

With that said I do agree with your overall sentiment that FW is in a bit of a weird limbo and bottleneck situation at the top mainly, but that in no way is primarily Max, Volkanovski, and Ortega's fault. If the top FW's were as active as the Middleweights we wouldn't be having this conversation, but you got people like Yair shitting the bed, and still maintaining his rank ALL because the UFC wanted Zabit to destroy him. You had Zabit ALSO managing to hold onto his ranking for the purpose of fast tracking him to a title shot as well. He lost his ranking not too long ago, but there were other factors and tom foolery contributing to the issue going on at FW. The only person from a Ranking perspective I feel for is Allen and that's mainly because he's the closest to getting a title shot.

Giga JUST entered the top 10, it's safe to say he wasn't nearly as effected as Allen was, same with Evloev, and same with Topuria. They've all just recently broke into the rankings, I get what you're saying, but again, it's not a one way street. Volkanovski, Ortega, and Max didn't do anything but fight who was put in front of them, some of the blame is certainly on how UFC tried to book the FW landscape with their blatant favoritism towards Zabit.

I'd argue that giga, just like the other guys that you say weren't affected, were indeed affected because a bottle neck at the top of the division trinkles all the way down. All of those guys would have had more opportunities to move up the division sooner if it wasn't for the lack of turnover at the top. Actually, I give you Topuria—he wasn't affected and his career is progressing at a normal pace, but the other guys deserved steps up sooner and just couldn't get it.

I don't blame the fighters. I blame the UFC. Ortega and Yair should have been removed from the rankings for innactivity just like they did to zabit. Max shouldn't have even fought frankie. Volk and and Max should have only fought once. All of this would have made the division turn over MUCH faster. There's a reason why there's no alternatives to Ortega right now, and there's a reason why after ortega there will still be no clear contender other than Max. And that reason isn't because it's a shallow division—it's pretty damn stacked— The reason is because the UFC made several choices that log jammed divisional turn over at the highest level of the division.

 

[Arkham's Notorious Geyser]

Yeah, the UFC does this often and I (along with many others) complain about it often. I lump the Max rematch in with all of unnecessary title fights that you just mentioned. Unfortunately, it's max that might suffer the most for it in the end.



I get it, you're a max fan. To me, instant rematches are reserved for goats, and 3 title defences just isn't in that category for me. The other instance that warrants instant title matches are obviously controversial endings, and I don't think any sane person would argue that the first Volk vs. Max fight was controversial. I do agree with you that there have been far less warrented title shots in the past, though, but that doesn't make the Max rematch anymore necessary in my mind.



I'd argue that giga, just like the other guys that you say weren't affected, were indeed affected because a bottle neck at the top of the division trinkles all the way down. All of those guys would have had more opportunities to move up the division sooner if it wasn't for the lack of turnover at the top. Actually, I give you Topuria—he wasn't affected and his career is progressing at a normal pace, but the other guys deserved steps up sooner and just couldn't get it.

I don't blame the fighters. I blame the UFC. Ortega and Yair should have been removed from the rankings for innactivity just like they did to zabit. Max shouldn't have even fought frankie. Volk and and Max should have only fought once. All of this would have made the division turn over MUCH faster. There's a reason why there's no alternatives to Ortega right now, and there's a reason why after ortega there will still be no clear contender other than Max. And that reason isn't because it's a shallow division—it's pretty damn stacked— The reason is because the UFC made several choices that log jammed divisional turn over at the highest level of the division.

I definitely agree that Max getting the immediate rematch has hurt him in the long run and put him in this weird position like Aldo before him, and Wonderboy at 170, but 3 title defenses and a decision loss still holds more merit than 1 title defense and a 1st round KO defeat, all in all I agree though, and this isn't about being a Max fan haha, I get that me being a Fan of him makes it seem that I'm impartial, but that's not always the case. Of all the Max fans on this forum, I argued the least about his decision loss in the Volkanovski rematch, scoring of the 1st 2 rounds aside, he didn't do enough to win 3 4, and 5. As for Title Defenses, 3 isn't exactly knocking down the doors for Goat Candidate I agree, but it's also not easy to accomplish for most UFC Champions, and when it comes to the Featherweight division, he holds the 2nd most title defenses. With that said, I wasn't really all that crazy about the rematch either, but I wasn't complaining, looking at the aftermath and yeah there's really not much to be happy about when we look at how things are playing out as a result.

I'm 100% Bias against Grandpa Giga I'll give you that one lol, once people start talking about people older than Max being "Prospects" and "Future Champions" I just become unimpressed, like he just beat aging Edson Barboza and Cub Swanson, he's gonna need to do a LOT more than that to convince me he's this "Heir" to the FW Championship, and with fighters like Volkanovski, and Max sitting at the top, him and his fans can shill with that shit. I'm not denying his striking pedigree and lethality he possesses on the feet, but I feel he's getting some..."undeserved" hype.

As for certain fighters holding onto their rankings, it blew my mind to that Yair still managed to hold onto his ranking that long, but that goes back to the UFC and their plans to fast track Zabit up the rankings as they knew he would be the easiest "Ranked" opponent to beat. Seems were pretty much on the same page about the UFC booking the FW Division to shit though, I might have misread earlier so I apologize. The more I think about it, the more I agree, just perhaps read into it the wrong way earlier. As for Ortega losing his ranking, I do believe he was trying to get fights scheduled, I could be wrong, but he was just injury prone for the most part hence why it took him 2 years.

 

[LATEXXX COMMANDO]

Not an Ortega fan at all but he definitely looked improved against KZ.

That being said though, there are levels to this. Alex went 10 rounds with the tallest, longest, best and most dynamic striker in the weight class and beat him twice. I don't think Ortega is going to pose much threat striking wise. I'm picking Volk to win via decision.

 

[H41ph_84k3d]

Cup Ortega is the champ in the making.

 

[fortheo]

I definitely agree that Max getting the immediate rematch has hurt him in the long run and put him in this weird position like Aldo before him, and Wonderboy at 170, but 3 title defenses and a decision loss still holds more merit than 1 title defense and a 1st round KO defeat, all in all I agree though, and this isn't about being a Max fan haha, I get that me being a Fan of him makes it seem that I'm impartial, but that's not always the case. Of all the Max fans on this forum, I argued the least about his decision loss in the Volkanovski rematch, scoring of the 1st 2 rounds aside, he didn't do enough to win 3 4, and 5. As for Title Defenses, 3 isn't exactly knocking down the doors for Goat Candidate I agree, but it's also not easy to accomplish for most UFC Champions, and when it comes to the Featherweight division, he holds the 2nd most title defenses. With that said, I wasn't really all that crazy about the rematch either, but I wasn't complaining, looking at the aftermath and yeah there's really not much to be happy about when we look at how things are playing out as a result.

I'm 100% Bias against Grandpa Giga I'll give you that one lol, once people start talking about people older than Max being "Prospects" and "Future Champions" I just become unimpressed, like he just beat aging Edson Barboza and Cub Swanson, he's gonna need to do a LOT more than that to convince me he's this "Heir" to the FW Championship, and with fighters like Volkanovski, and Max sitting at the top, him and his fans can shill with that shit. I'm not denying his striking pedigree and lethality he possesses on the feet, but I feel he's getting some..."undeserved" hype.

As for certain fighters holding onto their rankings, it blew my mind to that Yair still managed to hold onto his ranking that long, but that goes back to the UFC and their plans to fast track Zabit up the rankings as they knew he would be the easiest "Ranked" opponent to beat. Seems were pretty much on the same page about the UFC booking the FW Division to shit though, I might have misread earlier so I apologize. The more I think about it, the more I agree, just perhaps read into it the wrong way earlier. As for Ortega losing his ranking, I do believe he was trying to get fights scheduled, I could be wrong, but he was just injury prone for the most part hence why it took him 2 years.

I'm not high on Giga either. I was just saying that I think guys like him would have entered the rankings earlier (or at least had the opportunity to) if the division had a better turnover rate. Unfortunately the UFC has made a lot of bad decisions that lead to that division moving at a snail's pace.

Are there any fights you'd like to see booked at FW?

 

[El Fernas]

Its the cup, he wasnt using the right size at the time.

 

[Arkham's Notorious Geyser]

I'm not high on Giga either. I was just saying that I think guys like him would have entered the rankings earlier (or at least had the opportunity to) if the division had a better turnover rate. Unfortunately the UFC has made a lot of bad decisions that lead to that division moving at a snail's pace.

Are there any fights you'd like to see booked at FW?

I'd like to see Giga take on Arnold Allen, there relatively close in Rankings, and it'll be interesting to see how he handles someone in the Top 10 that will press the issue with grappling. We already know the guy can strike, and seeing how in a sea of strikers paradise Arnold Allen has cracked the top 10 with his grappling heavy style, it'll be a nice test for the two.

The second fight I'd like to see is maybe Calvin Kattar vs Sodiq Yusuf, both coming off of losses, and both are Strikers, I think it'll be a fun fight that will help either bounce back, I don't see much grappling playing a factor, but that's fine, like previously discussed there aren't many grapplers at FW besides Allen, and the Champ.