Optimizing Your Size, Strength, and Recovery with Protein, by David Barr

[David Barr]

"Fats must be avoided at all costs because they slow digestion and eliminate any potential pulsing effect."

I know Vedic said that liquid fats are fine, but I like to have eggs (on the side) with my protein shake in the mornings. Is this fine or will it negate the pulsing effect?

Fats aside:
"1. Type: In order to get the best protein pulse, we have to use a fast protein or even amino acids. The best choices are whey hydrolysate, peptides, and to a lesser extent, whey isolate."

Now this brings us to the point about fats, in that I can't imagine that you'd want anything other than fast carbs and protein for a pulse. Again I have no data pertaining to liquid fats and Vedic presents a cogent (and absolutely fascinating) argument, I just don't want anything in the drink that could potentially slow down the pulse, even a little bit.

We're already pushing the limits of an effective pulse with whey isolate, so it's best to keep it as fast as possible.

 

[IronMaidenfan#1]

Good read. Thanks Dave and thanks Mike for posting this.

 

[David Barr]

So will 500ml of water and a scoop of whey hydrosylate be effective?

I'd go with a full 1L but yes it will be very effective for protein pulsing. I'd add some carbs in there if it was consumed first thing in the morning to maximize the effect.

 

[TR14]

After reading the article on EFS today, I was hoping that the absorption of fat would be addressed again.

Good article, David.

Vedic, although I mostly lurk, your posts are continually among the most informative- thank you.

 

[Deleted member 87037]

I'd go with a full 1L but yes it will be very effective for protein pulsing. I'd add some carbs in there if it was consumed first thing in the morning to maximize the effect.

Ah, for the past month I've been having fats+protein first thing in the morning and saving my carbs+protein for immediate PWO meal + 2.5 hours later meal (John Berardi mentioned in one of his articles to have carbs within 3 hours of workout). So, I assume now it would be beneficial to switch the fats in the morning to carbs? Guess I'll save the fats I'd be missing from breakfast for my last meal of the day (right before bed).

 

[Vedic]

After reading the article on EFS today, I was hoping that the absorption of fat would be addressed again.

Good article, David.

Vedic, although I mostly lurk, your posts are continually among the most informative- thank you.

Thanks for the kind words.

 

[Mehwulfe]

asdf

 

[evilf22]

bump for this info, which should be mentioned.

Bohe, J, et al. Journal of Physiology. 532(2): 575-579, 2001.

ABSTRACT

The aim of this study was to describe the time course of the response of human muscle protein synthesis (MPS) to a square wave increase in availability of amino acids (AAs) in plasma. We investigated the responses of quadriceps MPS to a ≈1.7-fold increase in plasma AA concentrations using an intravenous infusion of 162 mg (kg body weight)−1 h−1 of mixed AAs. MPS was estimated from D3-leucine labelling in protein after a primed, constant intravenous infusion of D3-ketoisocaproate, increased appropriately during AA infusion.

Muscle was separated into myofibrillar, sarcoplasmic and mitochondrial fractions. MPS, both of mixed muscle and of fractions, was estimated during a basal period (2.5 h) and at 0.5-4 h intervals for 6 h of AA infusion.

Rates of mixed MPS were not significantly different from basal (0.076

 

[MikeMartial]

Great stuff, Evil, thanks for posting!

 

[David Barr]

Thanks evil, that Bohe paper is one of the most significant studies in exercise nutrition this decade.

This pic initially represents an ideal protein intake followed by the flatline. Much like an EKG, a flatline means the death of muscle growth and recovery.

<a href="http://s253.photobucket.com/albums/hh62/dbmuscle/?action=view&current=DavidBarrecg.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh62/dbmuscle/DavidBarrecg.jpg" border="0" alt="David Barr ECG"></a>

 

[Loomy]

References
Barr D (2004) The Real Scoop on Post-Workout Recovery Drinks. T-Nation.
Barr (2005) The Top Ten Post-Workout Myths. T-Nation.

Ugh I can't really take this seriously when the only source he cites is himself. Using that method I can prove anything

 

[Loomy]

bump for this info, which should be mentioned.

Bohe, J, et al. Journal of Physiology. 532(2): 575-579, 2001.

ABSTRACT

The aim of this study was to describe the time course of the response of human muscle protein synthesis (MPS) to a square wave increase in availability of amino acids (AAs) in plasma. We investigated the responses of quadriceps MPS to a &#8776;1.7-fold increase in plasma AA concentrations using an intravenous infusion of 162 mg (kg body weight)&#8722;1 h&#8722;1 of mixed AAs. MPS was estimated from D3-leucine labelling in protein after a primed, constant intravenous infusion of D3-ketoisocaproate, increased appropriately during AA infusion.

Muscle was separated into myofibrillar, sarcoplasmic and mitochondrial fractions. MPS, both of mixed muscle and of fractions, was estimated during a basal period (2.5 h) and at 0.5-4 h intervals for 6 h of AA infusion.

Rates of mixed MPS were not significantly different from basal (0.076

 

[MikeMartial]

Ugh I can't really take this seriously when the only source he cites is himself. Using that method I can prove anything

Didn't have the energy to actually check the references of said articles, did you? From the first:

Boirie Y, Dangin M, Gachon P, Vasson MP, Maubois JL, Beaufrere B.
Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1997 Dec 23;94(26):14930-5.



Borsheim E, Tipton KD, Wolf SE, Wolfe RR. Essential amino acids and muscle protein recovery from resistance exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol ****b. 2002 Oct;283(4):E648-57.


Burke LM, Collier GR, Hargreaves M. Muscle glycogen storage after prolonged exercise: effect of the glycemic index of carbohydrate feedings. J Appl Physiol. 1993 Aug;75(2):1019-23.


Calbet JA, MacLean DA. Plasma glucagon and insulin responses depend on the rate of appearance of amino acids after ingestion of different protein solutions in humans.
J Nutr. 2002 Aug;132(8):2174-82.



Dangin M, Boirie Y, Garcia-Rodenas C, Gachon P, Fauquant J, Callier P, Ballevre O, Beaufrere B. The digestion rate of protein is an independent regulating factor of postprandial protein retention Am J Physiol Endocrinol ****b 280: E340-E348, 2001

Lynch CJ, Hutson SM, Patson BJ, Vaval A, Vary TC. Tissue-specific effects of chronic dietary leucine and norleucine supplementation on protein synthesis in rats. Am J Physiol Endocrinol ****b. 2002 Oct;283(4):E824-35.


Rasmussen BB, Tipton KD, Miller SL, Wolf SE, Wolfe RR. An oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement enhances muscle protein anabolism after resistance exercise. J Appl Physiol. 2000 Feb;88(2):386-92.



Smith K, Reynolds N, Downie S, Patel A, Rennie MJ. Effects of flooding amino acids on incorporation of labeled amino acids into human muscle protein.
Am J Physiol. 1998 Jul;275(1 Pt 1):E73-8.



Tipton KD, Borsheim E, Wolf SE, Sanford AP, Wolfe RR Acute response of net muscle protein balance reflects 24-h balance after exercise and amino acid ingestion. Am J Physiol Endocrinol ****b. 2003 Jan;284(1):E76-89.


van Loon LJ, Saris WH, Verhagen H, Wagenmakers AJ. Plasma insulin responses after ingestion of different amino acid or protein mixtures with carbohydrate. Am J Clin Nutr. 2000 Jul;72(1):96-105.


Willott CA, Young ME, Leighton B, Kemp GJ, Boehm EA, Radda GK, Clarke K. Creatine uptake in isolated soleus muscle: kinetics and dependence on sodium, but not on insulin. Acta Physiol Scand. 1999 Jun;166(2):99-104.


Yoshizawa F. Regulation of protein synthesis by branched-chain amino acids in vivo. Biochem Biophys Res Commun. 2004 Jan 9;313(2):417-22.





​

 

[MikeMartial]

And the second:

1. Arnal MA, Mosoni L, Boirie Y, Houlier ML, Morin L, Verdier E, Ritz P, Antoine JM, Prugnaud J, Beaufrere B, Mirand PP. Protein pulse feeding improves protein retention in elderly women. Am J Clin Nutr. 1999 Jun;69(6):1202-8


2. Asp S, Daugaard JR, Kristiansen S, Kiens B, Richter EA. Eccentric exercise decreases maximal insulin action in humans: muscle and systemic effects. J Physiol. 1996 Aug 1;494 ( Pt 3):891-8.


3. Boirie Y, Dangin M, Gachon P, Vasson MP, Maubois JL, Beaufrere B. Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1997 Dec 23;94(26):14930-5.


4. Borsheim E, Tipton KD, Wolf SE, Wolfe RR. Essential amino acids and muscle protein recovery from resistance exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol ****b. 2002 Oct;283(4):E648-57.


5. Calbet JA, MacLean DA. Plasma glucagon and insulin responses depend on the rate of appearance of amino acids after ingestion of different protein solutions in humans. J Nutr. 2002 Aug;132(8):2174-82.


6. Child R, Brown S, Day S, Donnelly A, Roper H, Saxton J. Changes in indices of antioxidant status, lipid peroxidation and inflammation in human skeletal muscle after eccentric muscle actions. Clin Sci (Lond). 1999 Jan;96(1):105-15.


7. Childs A, Jacobs C, Kaminski T, Halliwell B, Leeuwenburgh C. Supplementation with vitamin C and N-acetyl-cysteine increases oxidative stress in humans after an acute muscle injury induced by eccentric exercise. Free Radic Biol Med. 2001 Sep 15;31(6):745-53.


8. Coggins M, Lindner J, Rattigan S, Jahn L, Fasy E, Kaul S, Barrett E. Physiologic hyperinsulinemia enhances human skeletal muscle perfusion by capillary recruitment. Diabetes. 2001 Dec;50(12):2682-90.


9. Dangin M, Boirie Y, Garcia-Rodenas C, Gachon P, Fauquant J, Callier P, Ballevre O, Beaufrere B. The digestion rate of protein is an independent regulating factor of postprandial protein retention Am J Physiol Endocrinol ****b 280: E340-E348, 2001


10. Dangin M, Guillet C, Garcia-Rodenas C, Gachon P, Bouteloup-Demange C, Reiffers-Magnani K, Fauquant J, Ballevre O, Beaufrere B. The rate of protein digestion affects protein gain differently during aging in humans. Physiol. 2003 Jun 1;549(Pt 2):635-44.


11. Esmarck B, Andersen JL, Olsen S, Richter EA, Mizuno M, Kjaer M. Timing of postexercise protein intake is important for muscle hypertrophy with resistance training in elderly humans. J Physiol. 2001 Aug 15;535(Pt 1):301-11.


12. Fujitani J, Higaki Y, Kagawa T, Sakamoto M, Kiyonaga A, Shindo M, Taniguchi A, Nakai Y, Tokuyama K, Tanaka H. Intravenous glucose tolerance test-derived glucose effectiveness in strength-trained humans. ****bolism. 1998 Jul;47(7):874-7.


13. Goldfarb AH, Bloomer RJ, McKenzie MJ. Combined antioxidant treatment effects on blood oxidative stress after eccentric exercise. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2005 Feb;37(2):234-9.


14. Ivy JL, Katz AL, Cutler CL, Sherman WM, Coyle EF. Muscle glycogen synthesis after exercise: effect of time of carbohydrate ingestion. J Appl Physiol. 1988 Apr;64(4):1480-5.


15. Koopman R, Manders RJ, Zorenc AH, Hul GB, Kuipers H, Keizer HA, van Loon LJ. A single session of resistance exercise enhances insulin sensitivity for at least 24 h in healthy men. Eur J Appl Physiol. 2005 May;94(1-2):180-7.


16. Lee J, Goldfarb AH, Rescino MH, Hegde S, Patrick S, Apperson K. Eccentric exercise effect on blood oxidative-stress markers and delayed onset of muscle soreness. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2002 Mar;34(3):443-8.
17. Levenhagen DK, Gresham JD, Carlson MG, Maron DJ, Borel MJ, Flakoll PJ. Postexercise nutrient intake timing in humans is critical to recovery of leg glucose and protein homeostasis. Am J Physiol Endocrinol ****b. 2001 Jun;280(6):E982-93.


18. Louis M, Poortmans JR, Francaux M, Berre J, Boisseau N, Brassine E, Cuthbertson DJ, Smith K, Babraj JA, Waddell T, Rennie MJ. No effect of creatine supplementation on human myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic protein synthesis after resistance exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol ****b. 2003 Nov;285(5):E1089-94.


19. MacDougall JD, Gibal MJ, Tarnopolsky MA, MacDonald JR, Interisano SA, Yarasheski KE. The time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis following heavy resistance exercise. Can J Appl Physiol. 1995 Dec;20(4):480-6.


20. Miller WJ, Sherman WM, Ivy JL. Effect of strength training on glucose tolerance and post-glucose insulin response. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1984 Dec;16(6):539-43.


21. Pascoe DD, Costill DL, Fink WJ, Robergs RA, Zachwieja JJ. Glycogen resynthesis in skeletal muscle following resistive exercise. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1993 Mar;25(3):349-54.


22. Peterson JM, Trappe TA, Mylona E, White F, Lambert CP, Evans WJ, Pizza FX. Ibuprofen and acetaminophen: effect on muscle inflammation after eccentric exercise. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2003 Jun;35(6):892-6.
23. Phillips SM, Tipton KD, Aarsland A, Wolf SE, Wolfe RR. Mixed muscle protein synthesis and breakdown after resistance exercise in humans. Am J Physiol. 1997 Jul;273(1 Pt 1):E99-107.


24. Phillips SM, Parise G, Roy BD, Tipton KD, Wolfe RR, Tamopolsky MA.
Resistance-training-induced adaptations in skeletal muscle protein turnover in the fed state. Can J Physiol Pharmacol. 2002 Nov;80(11):1045-53.


25. Rasmussen, BB, Tipton KD, Miller SL, Wolf SE, and Wolfe RR. An oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement enhances muscle protein anabolism after resistance exercise. J Appl Physiol 88: 386-392, 2000


26. Tipton KD, Rasmussen BB, Miller SL, Wolf SE, Owens-Stovall SK, Petrini BE, Wolfe RR. Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol ****b. 2001 Aug;281(2):E197-206


27. Tipton KD, Borsheim E, Wolf SE, Sanford AP, Wolfe RR. Acute response of net muscle protein balance reflects 24-h balance after exercise and amino acid ingestion. Am J Physiol Endocrinol ****b. 2003 Jan;284(1):E76-89.


28. Trappe TA, Fluckey JD, White F, Lambert CP, Evans WJ. Skeletal muscle PGF(2)(alpha) and PGE(2) in response to eccentric resistance exercise: influence of ibuprofen acetaminophen. J Clin Endocrinol ****b. 2001 Oct;86(10):5067-70.


29. Trappe TA, White F, Lambert CP, Cesar D, Hellerstein M, Evans WJ.
Effect of ibuprofen and acetaminophen on postexercise muscle protein synthesis. Am J Physiol Endocrinol ****b. 2002 Mar;282(3):E551-6.
​

 

[evilf22]

im curious david, are there limitations beyong what is described for pulse feeding? i remember reading in your "naked truth' article about surge that post-wo you can do 2 pulses 80 minutes apart back to back. given it would be expensive, but is there any reason i couldnt do a protein pulse feeding every 80 minutes? thats what the picture you posted looks like, back to back pulses. im thinking of using a method consisting of "pulse windows" where for an alotted time of the day, protein pulses are used back to back exclusively. the rest of the day would consist of whole food meals for obvious reasons. is there anything you have seen that would leave you to believe pulses lose efficiency or our bodies respose to the rapid increase in AA would be different after the first pulse?

 

[Vedic]

Those are the same studies used by proponents of each side of the work out window. As I said its something that once proven on paper would need to proven in my eyes in front of me. When it comes to elite level athletes or any for that matter, I don't see sipping on whey that many times a day making the difference between 325 on bench and 350 on bench. "Feeding the machine" by Robb Wolf is a great example of it. Supplements are supplements. Whey no matter how many times a day will never replace a solid diet. Hell I am even down for proving it with subjects.

BTW I love how most of the studies are Tipton's but he isn't a Pulse feeding guy. none the less.

 

[easternbloc7]

Whey PWO shake made with whole milk isnt optimal then?

I was wondering the same thing.

 

[evilf22]

dont overcomplicate it. there are things that probably wont slow it down, and things that will. nobody knows which is which for sure. speed is the key here, so dont mess with it. keep it to just BCAA, EAA or Whey Hydrosylate, and simple carbs post-wo if its in line with your goals, if you wish to try and take advantage of the protein pulse feeding "theory".

and by whey, you better mean hydrosylate. isolate is too slow digesting. whole milk i would imagine would slow the digestion. i know fat is digested in a different matter, but it surely wont help, so why have it there? vedic has already explained why fat post-wo is a bad idea, though it has nothing to do with slowing digestion like commonly thought. plus now you have multiple protein sources which should slow the digestion. just use water. keep it simple.

 

[Vedic]

Because of adipose tissue gain. It has nothing to do with absorption.

 

[G0NZ0]

Thanks for the post