Opinions on rolling with untrained people

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by tspirtle, Mar 21, 2008.

  1. tspirtle

    tspirtle White Belt

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    I've been training in various martial arts for about a year now. My main focus has been boxing, but I've also done a bit of muy thai and TKD.

    I'd like to move on to some sort of grappling art (Preferably BJJ), but it'll be awhile before I can get the money together for classes.

    In the mean time, would it be a bad idea for me to train/roll with other untrained people? There's 3 or 4 (untrained) guys who have been getting together every Sunday at my gym for the past couple years and training with each other for fun. None of them have been in any competition or had any professional training.

    My main concern is learning one way (the wrong way), then having trouble learning a different way (correct way) when I actually take BJJ classes.

    So, would I be better off to not do anything at all without proper training, or would it not hurt to get a little practice in for fun?
     
  2. Yojimbo

    Yojimbo Brown Belt

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    People will have mixed opinions on this, but I think it isn't a terrible idea. I wouldn't bother practicing submissions, just train positions. Focus on using your weight to keep pressure on your partner while you are on top, trying to limit each other's hip movement, things like that. Search youtube for shrimping drills (hip escape), upa (bridge), one or two basic guard passes, and a basic side control escape and practice those with very little resistance from your partner. Your goal is to have some sense of the movements of jiujitsu. Don't worry about submissions at all.
     
  3. The Colonel

    The Colonel Purple Belt

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    I would advise strongly against it.

    First off, and not to be mean here, but you wouldn't begin to understand what the hell you're doing.

    None of the guys you'd be working out with would have the slightest idea what the hell they are doing.

    I can just picture some dumbass seeing how to do a heel hook from Black Belt magazine through some shitty article, slapping it on some other guy who doesn't know anything, and sitting there jerking the guy's leg around till all of a sudden you here a big loud POP and someone is screaming in pain.

    Plus, man you'll develop so many bad habits just dicking around with people that don't know anything. Once you start training with a legit instructor you'll have all these bad habits, you'll have to un-learn everything you thought you knew, and furthermore you may end up hurting someone else (or yourself) when you start rolling with people who do know something because hey, it worked on your friend so maybe it'll work in class.

    Just don't. There is no point.

    But like Yojimbo said, people will differ drastically on this question.
     
  4. ijustwannasurf

    ijustwannasurf Brown Belt

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    YouTube can show you the basics, agreed, but nothing will set you on the right track like good instruction.
    My main beef with this kind of training is getting in the habit of using strength instead of technique.
     
  5. MonkeyNuts!

    MonkeyNuts! Rear Naked Poker

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    Nope. Bad habits.

    That wouldn't be practice. It'd be a LARPing session.
     
  6. Yojimbo

    Yojimbo Brown Belt

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    I don't really agree with the "bad habits to unlearn" thing. I mean, if you don't know what you're doing, you don't know what you're doing. Know what I'm saying? I dunno, it's late and I'm tired and I don't know anything anyway lol. Just an opinion.
     
  7. AnOddParadigm

    AnOddParadigm Blue Belt

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    If you were getting real training and also rolling with your friends that would be fine. But I have seen so many people come in with bad habits that take them forever to unlearn that I just can't recommend learning like this.
     
  8. hayliks

    hayliks Banned Banned

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    Oh they are hard to break. I have a bunch of terrible habits from wrestling. Even though I've been at bjj for over 6 years now, I have adapted these habits rather than try to break them, but sometimes they still get me in trouble.
     
  9. copete

    copete Orange Belt

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    depends... a purple belt i know did HS wrestling then a few buddies would watch DVDs and read books and drill stuff they liked.. he got his blue belt mad quick when he got to the school, then got his purple a lot quicker then i was expecting again and he has placed top three in a few bjj tourneys
     
  10. UrbanSavage**

    UrbanSavage** Pepe Silvia

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    I'd personally just spend the time lifting weights and/or getting into great cardio shape as well as working on flexibility.
     
  11. Commissar

    Commissar Gold Belt

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    I don't think it's a bad idea. Just don't think that you're... 'good'.
     
  12. copete

    copete Orange Belt

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    actually i agree with both of these last posts
     
  13. wufabufa

    wufabufa Black Belt

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    evan tanner was taught himself through reading bjj books and rolling around with friends. then again, not everyone is evan tanner.

    i think doing drills and understanding how you're body moves on the ground could be alright, but sparring might make you develop weird habits.
     
  14. groinstrike

    groinstrike Blue Belt

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    True, it would be to easy for someone to get hurt
     
  15. NinjaKilla187

    NinjaKilla187 Blue Belt

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    Bad idea. Like others have said, you or someone else is going to get hurt and you are going to learn incorrectly, if at all.

    Judo is cheap and widely available. Get your friends together and sign up for Judo then transition to BJJ once you have the money. You will learn some good Newaza and at least be under the supervision of a coach that won't let anything really stupid go on.
     
  16. Darkslide632

    Darkslide632 Brown Belt

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    Ok, so I am one of those people who is ok with untrained people getting together and grappling. I started out that way years ago.

    While there are plenty of things a good instructor can teach you, there are things they can't. I tell my students that right from the beginning. There are certain ways of moving on the ground that I just can't teach and really the only way to learn is to spend time on the mat. Are you techniques going to be fantastic? Absolutely not, but you can learn some basic ideas out of books or online and then just get comfortable being on the ground.

    I tell bass students of mine the same thing. People come to me and tell me that they want to learn to play and my usual response is to tell them that they should go home, sit on the couch and just play. Get comfortable with the bass being in your hands, figure out what works for you and what feels comfortable and THEN come back to me to be refined.
     
  17. NinjaKilla187

    NinjaKilla187 Blue Belt

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    Having watched some of your vid I am confident that you are a better grappler and Judoka than I am. I think, though, that you are assuming that the TS's training partners are as mature, responsible and thoughtful as yours were and likely are. That might not be the case. With the proliferation of MMA and Youtube one of these guys could get all geeked up on adrenaline and destroy's somebodies knee with a leglock or do a power slam or something even stupider.
     
  18. dinpappa

    dinpappa Purple Belt

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    Tbh, i started that way, because there was no grappling (BJJ, sw etc) in my town. So me and a few mates just started rolling and watching instructionals to get the "feel".
    Atleast you get to try some stuff, and feel your strength, and others imposing their will on you. So you get somewhat of an idea on how it is. You dont need to have 20 years and a blackbelt to discover its uncomfortable to have a sweaty guy ontop of your face pinning you down.

    Get a feel for the element that is groundfighting, then move on and get your proper tutored technique down in a school. Atleast you wont spend the first month getting all matburns, silkskin cuts and bruises since its all new to you.

    but ofc, pick your "training partners" carefully, people that have a genuine intrest of the groundgame and not just ppl wanting to yank and crank different locks. Everybody seem to start in the wrong end, dont learn the armbar first, then struggle forever to apply it, learn the setup and positioning first. The real work is the part before you actually lock it into place.

    Just reflect on what you do, and roll easy and have fun with it, watch instructionals and lets say start with just backyard wrestle your mates for positions. Mount, guard, sidecontrol etc, then break off and start over standing or on your knees. Dont care about any submissions until you atleast master some sort of groundcontrol. Both from your back and on top.



    Hope it made sense, it kinda turned out like a brainstorm and not very concrete :p
     
  19. devante

    devante Silver Belt

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    i think its not a bad idea, in the instance that it gets u used to the body on body contact; an the energy or horsepower needed when facing a guy on the mat, esp a larger or more athletic guy

    i did it b4 i grappled for real, an the tech was hard to pick up on; but the shock of having someone on me or locking up wasn't there, cus i had been doing it.

    secondly my conditioning was actually ok; cus now i had tech and strategies instead of just rolling around....

    i see the bad points..but that is all based on ur mindset and the quality of people u deal w/

    same thing w/standup, im not so great tech; but even really well trained people say they were shocked w/my comfort at having punches thrown at me or not spazzing when i got clocked. An that came from my exp in the backyard or in the college dorm putting the gloves on...

    it can foster bad habits, but it can also dev a sense of comfort and confidence; that if kept in its correct perspective will really help u
     
  20. devante

    devante Silver Belt

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    ttt
     

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