Opinions on JJ students abandoning their original schools

[Shaolin Bushido]

Of course, but why is your self-interested painted as some type of bad thing? You don't join jiu-jitsu so that you may pay your instructor some fees. You join so that you can learn jiu-jitsu--and inherently selfish goal. The whole point of attending is so that you can learn a skill, and learn it well.

If I am ever presented with an opportunity to get better instruction at a cheaper price, I will take it! That's because I take jiu-jitsu so that I can get good at it, not to provide a $120 per month charity service to a Brazilian guy. If that was the case, I would just give him my money and not show up.

If he is training me, showing me techniques, etc, and then says I "betrayed" him by leaving, I would say--"Are you forgetting about the thousands of dollars I've paid you?" It would be a lot different if he charged absolutely nothing and the agreement was that I would stick around with him as a student forever. However, there is no such agreement. The agreement is that I pay him for instruction and he provides me that instruction. He is not providing that service out of sacrifice--he's doing it for his own benefit just like I am. The only debt I owe him is the fees I pay each month and the rules of the class (which include respect when on the mats and in the gym).

If the instructor was a genuine friend, he wouldn't later ask me to sacrifice my ability to improve by telling me to stay at his school when I could go to a better one. That is not how a friend acts. Friends want to see you get better.

.... "Though I still agree that consumers have a right to spend their money how and where they decide, for the first time I understand a bit more how the OLD SCHOOL instructors viewed students they felt "betrayed" them by jumping around from school to school with no sense of regret, respect or loyalty."

Hmmm, thanks for your contribution bro. My bad.

 

[Shaolin Bushido]

... plus, just cause a guy has a black belt doesn't necessarily mean he's a better instructor ... as I indicated earlier in the thread(didn't feel like quoting myself again, heh).

Lots of guys would shell out that extra money as you've said, based on the man's higher rank and it's possible that is what is occurring here. I don't know.

I wasn't suggesting that anyone should carelessly throw any money away. Matter of fact, based on price and value ... EVERYONE should be training at Snakes' school!

I know I rarely read all posts prior to contributing to a thread but you missed some essential points that have already been made by skipping a few key posts that have already been stated.

 

[furdog]

.... "Though I still agree that consumers have a right to spend their money how and where they decide, for the first time I understand a bit more how the OLD SCHOOL instructors viewed students they felt "betrayed" them by jumping around from school to school with no sense of regret, respect or loyalty."

Why did you highlight that? I don't understand what new point you're trying to make.

 

[Shaolin Bushido]

Why did you highlight that? I don't understand what new point you're trying to make.

Just off the top of my head, I was pointing out that I personally agree that consumers like yourself can and should spend your money wherever you want to and that it wasn't my opinion necessarily that guys that leave their schools are regarded as traitors by some ... it was and I believe, still is viewed by some ole skool JJ guys that way however.

 

[furdog]

Just off the top of my head, I was pointing out that I personally agree that consumers like yourself can and should spend your money wherever you want to and that it wasn't my opinion necessarily that guys that leave their schools are regarded as traitors by some ... it was and I believe, still is viewed by some ole skool JJ guys that way however.

Right, I understood your opinion. My confusion is why you chose to highlight it and post it again. Nobody was disagreeing with you.

 

[Shaolin Bushido]

Right, I understood your opinion. My confusion is why you chose to highlight it and post it again. Nobody was disagreeing with you.

It's not a big deal. It seemed from your post where you first quoted me that you were misunderstanding or disagreeing. Miscommunication. It happens.

 

[Sub Dude]

Of course, but why is your self-interested painted as some type of bad thing? You don't join jiu-jitsu so that you may pay your instructor some fees. You join so that you can learn jiu-jitsu--and inherently selfish goal. The whole point of attending is so that you can learn a skill, and learn it well.

If I am ever presented with an opportunity to get better instruction at a cheaper price, I will take it! That's because I take jiu-jitsu so that I can get good at it, not to provide a $120 per month charity service to a Brazilian guy. If that was the case, I would just give him my money and not show up.

If he is training me, showing me techniques, etc, and then says I "betrayed" him by leaving, I would say--"Are you forgetting about the thousands of dollars I've paid you?" It would be a lot different if he charged absolutely nothing and the agreement was that I would stick around with him as a student forever. However, there is no such agreement. The agreement is that I pay him for instruction and he provides me that instruction. He is not providing that service out of sacrifice--he's doing it for his own benefit just like I am. The only debt I owe him is the fees I pay each month and the rules of the class (which include respect when on the mats and in the gym).

If the instructor was a genuine friend, he wouldn't later ask me to sacrifice my ability to improve by telling me to stay at his school when I could go to a better one. That is not how a friend acts. Friends want to see you get better.

Ok, since you asked I'll weigh in...


First, let me say that I train at another school in the area, but I know all of the parties involved, and have visited and trained at both schools. I respect both of the instructors and think they are all great guys. Basically, I don't have a dog in this theoretical fight either way. But, I tend to agree with the above post. I think 'loyalty' is one of those concepts in martial arts that is way over-rated, and has, in many cases been been perverted by some instructors to guilt students into doing things that are not necessarily in their best interest. Students pay an instructor to provide a service...bottom line. They don't owe them anything beyond that. More often than not, students and instructors will eventually develop some type of personal relationship, and if the student and instructor choose to be loyal to EACH OTHER, that is certainly their choice. But, instructors do not own their students, and have no right to expect unending loyalty regardless of circumstances. While I do agree that if there is something that comes up between the two which causes a rift, or difference of opinion, it would be best if they could sit down and talk about it and try to work out their differences. But, it is the natural evolution of things for schools and organizations to splinter apart as they grow. Look at the history of BJJ or any other martial art for that matter, and you will see this pattern again and again.

While I agree that, in this case, both are excellent academies, I can certainly understand the desire for students, especially those who are more experience with higher rank, to find it beneficial to train with a black belt instructor, rather than a purple belt...especially students who are purple belt level (or higher) themselves. I can also see why students would pay more to train with someone of that level. It doesn't mean that the purple belt is not a great instructor, but they are not a black belt, and I don't care what anyone says, there is a huge difference.


Just my 2 cents...

 

[jasond]

I could never imagine leaving a school for the sake of a promotion. I've only left one school and it was because of specific things that happened that led to it not being a safe place for my family to train.

My current coach is as much a friend as he is an instructor and he's got my loyalty until the end; regardless of any future promotions or lack thereof. I understand where people are coming from as far as the consumer aspect of it, but I view it as a stronger bond than that.

 

[Shaolin Bushido]

I stated my case as delicately as I could ... I ain't judging anyone involved but it's just something I've read about often on this forum and others and only just experienced it for myself recently.

Thanx for all the opinions offered thus far.

 

[Doh!]

Fur dog and subdude are exactly right. When it comes down to it a BJJ is a business and we are all consumers. Most pay a significant amount of money to train and compete. If something changes the status quo and you feel you are no longer getting the best value for your money and time you have every right to go elsewhere.

However, anytime a large number of higher level students leave a gym, there is probably a reason. That they didn't share their grievances with everyone is a testament to their integrity.

My current school (to my knowledge) has NEVER had a high level student leave to join another program in the area. That is a testament to the quality of the program in and of itself. I was training under a purple belt at a RGJJN school and now am under a black belt. I have been training for 3 years (1.5 with the Royce Gracie school and 1.5 with my current academy) my knowledge of the game increased at such an exponential rate when I switched to the black belt's instruction that I had more than doubled my knowledge in as little as 3 months.

The best way I could explain my decision to my old teammates was that training now is like going to a Royce seminar every day, but it's included with my tuition and I'm not charged an arm and a leg for it.

I tried to part ways professionally but my instructor still took it personally. He shouldn't have. Nothing he taught me was wrong exactly. But in a move he used to show the advanced class in a few steps I now learn dozens of steps, all the little details he didn't know, and as a purple belt wasn't expected to, if he knew them, he'd be a black belt...

 

[sprite]

I stated my case as delicately as I could ... I ain't judging anyone involved but it's just something I've read about often on this forum and others and only just experienced it for myself recently.

Thanx for all the opinions offered thus far.

you also have to remember that the purple belt doesn't have the "power" to promote students to anything above a blue belt. people, from my experiences, like belts and like to have the idea that they earned their belts with blood sweat and tears but from your school this was not possible. are they gonna be competing as blue belts in tournaments forerver?

so i can understand why people left.

people left my school because my instructor was rarely on the mat for a certain period of time. we would all be in class and he would just sit in his office and once class started we would kind of just look at each other and and think "open mat?" we would eventually drill moves we already knew or roll. and also he kept on making false promises. he would say stuff on the new syllabus like: "muay thai tuesdays and thursdays coming soon!" and "sunday classes coming soon!" but would never deliver on those promises. this made a lot of people feel like they were being lied to. the highs and the lows of expectations... they eventually got sick of it and left.

i understand why they left.


so i guess bottom line is that there are a lot of gray areas and all of this "loyalty" crap is just an illusion and TMA bullshit.

 

[sprite]

However, anytime a large number of higher level students leave a gym, there is probably a reason. That they didn't share their grievances with everyone is a testament to their integrity.

it is possible that the complaints were vented but the head guy in charge did nothing to rectify the situation.

 

[Bill_Carson]

Xtreme Couture just opened up near me, and I ain't leaving my gym.

I think you stick with your "people" as long as you are getting what you need from the gym.

To leave "just because" is a b*tch move.

 

[Cash Bill 52]

Leaving your jiu jitsu academy is like breaking up with your girlfriend. The longer you are together the tougher it is to break it off.

Luckily for me a great school is only 5 minutes away. Even if I was angry or disappointed I wouldn't want to drive all over the Bay Area looking for a new home. No school is perfect.

We are customers/clients and deserve quality. If you can't get it at home and someone else offers it, I guess you have to leave.

When Ralph and Cesar split in 98 it was rough. Ralph took Kurt Osiander, The Camarillos, Cameron Earle and BJ Penn with him.

Then BJ and the Camarilos left Ralph and that was...well I guess you get the idea. If you have to split up make sure it's worth it.

The grass actually is greener sometimes....

Gracie Barra, Alliance and Brasa all are having problems keeping their teams together.

 

[Doh!]

it is possible that the complaints were vented but the head guy in charge did nothing to rectify the situation.

True. That was part of my situation as well. I had been unhappy with some changes in my academy for awhile and as one of only 4-5 consistent competitors I thought my views should have been taken into consideration. I was told in no uncertain terms, "take it or leave it". Well I damn sure wasn't spending over $100 a month in that environment. However, I did not go around proclaiming to all the newbies all my reasons for leaving. Which is what I meant by that comment. Just because a newbie doesn't know their reasons for leaving doesn't mean they aren't perfectly valid. In fact he is criticizing them for leaving to "get promoted" yet of his own account says he doesn't really know why they left.

In my case I actually thought I might get demoted when I joined my new academy... Royce Gracie is not exactly known for the quality of his blue belts in the rest of the jiu jitsu world (something I did not know at the time of my promotion). And as much as I respect all that he has accomplished and all he has done for the sport, I had no business being promoted to a blue belt when I was.

 

[Doh!]

Xtreme Couture just opened up near me, and I ain't leaving my gym.

I think you stick with your "people" as long as you are getting what you need from the gym.

To leave "just because" is a b*tch move.

Key phrase is "as long as you get what you need", or as I like to think, as long as a better situation is not available. It all depends what is important to you. And each person is different.

I don't think anyone leaves "just because", especially not people who have put in a fair amount of time at one gym. Leaving my friends was won of the hardest things I ever had to do and the decision definitely did NOT come easy. But I'll tell you one thing, it showed me who was really a friend of mine. I thought a lot more of my teammates would have respected my decision and need for growth. Most didn't. The only thing I regret is not switching sooner. I can't imagine ever leaving the school I'm at now.

 

[laquintofox]

it all depends on the instructor and the situation. because i think marcelo was with fabiano desouza in minas gerais and when he got to a good level and needed to expand his game he started to train at other gyms .

 

[stlnl2]

People like belts. Pretty simple, and BB's can promote them. AS for Royce having low quality blues, I hear that over and over, and unlike most of the people putting that out I have actually rolled with blues from at least 8-10 high end instructors, and they all were of equivilent ability to me.

I have met Snake in Raleigh at one of the Team ROC team training sessions ( I was running the boxing/kickboxng portion of training) and he seemed a nice fellow and was a good grappler. I dont doubt he is a good teacher, and ANYONE who thinks a guy who has trained consistently for 9+ years is somehow much lesser than a BB in knowledge or ability has not been around BJJ enough.

 

[DaRuckus337]

Leaving your jiu jitsu academy is like breaking up with your girlfriend. The longer you are together the tougher it is to break it off.

Luckily for me a great school is only 5 minutes away. Even if I was angry or disappointed I wouldn't want to drive all over the Bay Area looking for a new home. No school is perfect.

We are customers/clients and deserve quality. If you can't get it at home and someone else offers it, I guess you have to leave.

When Ralph and Cesar split in 98 it was rough. Ralph took Kurt Osiander, The Camarillos, Cameron Earle and BJ Penn with him.

Then BJ and the Camarilos left Ralph and that was...well I guess you get the idea. If you have to split up make sure it's worth it.

The grass actually is greener sometimes....

Gracie Barra, Alliance and Brasa all are having problems keeping their teams together.

I think you nailed it with that analogy. Like breaking up with a girlfriend, it isn't usually pretty or amicable or easy (and only gets tougher the longer you are together), but it is often necessary. Who here hasn't outgrown, become tired/frustrated with, or generally needed a fresh start from a relationship in their lives? Sometimes it's you, sometimes it's them, but when you're no longer satisfied with where you are, it's only natural that you look somewhere else. That's life. I understand why some people take it personally and why some people hold grudges, but unless I somehow conceive a child with my gym, I am going to reserve the right to move on with my life for just about any personal reason that compels me to do so.

Oh, and like a girlfriend, those gyms that are clingy and insecure and threaten/nag about commitment are the ones that most likely to push someone away.

 

[calzone]

That's life. I understand why some people take it personally and why some people hold grudges, but unless I somehow conceive a child with my gym, I am going to reserve the right to move on with my life for just about any personal reason that compels me to do so.

sure you can't conceive a child with your gym...

but you can symbolically conceive one with you, your instructor, and your belt. sounds kinda nasty but you get the idea