Movies (Opinion) Tony Montana is an overrated criminal protagonist.

[rob mafia]

There are better examples of crime bosses.

i think you missed the point. who the fuck likes scarface because of his example as a crime boss.

fwiw, i think scarface is crazy over-rated and not even good. people only seem to like the end, anyway.

 

[DaleBoca]

I enjoy both movies alot.

But none of them are in the same level as Scorsese or Coppola mob movies.

Indeed, they’re definitely not on that level. They’re not even on the level Donnie Brasco and Once Upon a Time in America.

 

[HHJ]

Indeed, they’re definitely not on that level. They’re not even on the level Donnie Brasco and Once Upon a Time in America.

Id say Donnie Brasco is sort of on their level,but the final scene in Donnie Brasco kind of puts it on another level,maybe?

Once Upon a Time is def better.

Still,very entertaining movies. Living in NYC and having spent time in Miami,I love these movies,and get good memories and vibes from the locales.

 

[RedFoxOne]

I find this a weird analysis.

I think you have a template or blue print you want every "Criminal Overlord" type to fit where as you say 'they show their humanity', 'get the audience to relate', which is fine if that is what you want but that was never supposed to be Tony.

I think he was always meant to be the opposite. Unsympathetic driven psycho type who was going to burn bright for a moment and always flame out in a violent fashion. No early build up, no final redemption. Just a roller coaster ride that went up a steep slope and came down the other side, fast, furious and right in to the wall.

Pretty much this.

Film audiences have glorified this film and character. But I'd argue Stone's script is pretty dark and sour - obviously. And what makes this film work is that De Palma juxtaposes the script with 1980's pomp and pageantry.

And Pacino is just so god-damned captivating that you can't help but root for his character. But inherently, Tony Montana is a one dimensional thug. A street soldier whose wiser and faster and crueler than most, but not all. Stone's story provides the substance and Pacino/De Palma bring the style.

 

[RichardHarrow]

I agree. When Tony killed Manny I was like, "fuck this dude for real." Manny was the most loyal friend he ever had. And yes he was with Tony's sister but he loved her. I remember me and a co worker getting into an argument over the scene Tony shoots Manny. My co worker was like "he warned him to stay away from his sister." I was like, "bruh, dude literally saved Tony's life at the motel. He wouldn't even be alive if it wasn't for Manny."

And the Clipse said it best on their classic album Hell Hath No Fury, " be Sosa, not Tony."

Why would one want a womanising co drug dealer whose life was endangered every day to settle with his sister? So just because someone saves my life he gets to endanger my sisters and potentially future children? Defeats the purpose.

 

[StonedLemur]

Am I the only one who found the scene with Tony fighting the phone to be hilarious?<Lmaoo>

It's one of those unintentionally funny scenes.

Also, Sosa's acting was phenomenal!

Yeah that scene is funny shit lol

 

[StonedLemur]

His character isn't supposed to be an together / organised crime boss..

He's a passionate psycho who gets to the top fast and goes out in a blaze of flames.. that's why we love him.

That and he didn't back down from anyone.

 

[StonedLemur]

If we're talking about Omar Little from The Wire, he is MUCH more virtuous. He's like barely a bad guy.

Omar was the best character on that whole show sir.

 

[moreorless87]

Id say Donnie Brasco is sort of on their level,but the final scene in Donnie Brasco kind of puts it on another level,maybe?

Once Upon a Time is def better.

Still,very entertaining movies. Living in NYC and having spent time in Miami,I love these movies,and get good memories and vibes from the locales.

Really I think Once Upon A Time In America takes itself much more seriously than Scarface, I just don't see those films as trying to be the same thing at all even if there nominally "gangster films"..

As I mentioned a few months ago personally I think King of Newyork is better than Scarface, a similar kind of style to them but a bit more depth and I think a better performances by Walken and Fishburn. Honestly it does kind of feel like its taking the piss out of Scarface and similar films of the era a little by having all the rivals gangsters they kill being that kind of more cliched roles.

 

[DC23]

He's no Gennaro Savastano that's for sure.

 

[HHJ]

Really I think Once Upon A Time In America takes itself much more seriously than Scarface, I just don't see those films as trying to be the same thing at all even if there nominally "gangster films"..

As I mentioned a few months ago personally I think King of Newyork is better than Scarface, a similar kind of style to them but a bit more depth and I think a better performances by Walken and Fishburn. Honestly it does kind of feel like its taking the piss out of Scarface and similar films of the era a little by having all the rivals gangsters they kill being that kind of more cliched roles.

Yeah I wouldnt say their similiar. It's just some people tend to overrate it's place in movie history,despite the major differences between it and more "serious" movies.

 

[Greyscale]

I think he is much deeper and more tragic that it may seem. He was willing to do anything to get to the top, but stopped when confronted with the possibility of doing something unthinkable even for him and that eventually led to his doom.

Still my favorite criminal characters are McCauley from Heat, Noodles from Once upon a time in America and Ace from Casino.

Once upon a time in America is in a league of its own.

 

[moreorless87]

Yeah I wouldnt say their similiar. It's just some people tend to overrate it's place in movie history,despite the major differences between it and more "serious" movies.

Really I view it as much as it simply not aiming for the same thing, its more like comparing They Live to The Godfather, not really that relevant IMHO.

 

[Mark McMichael]

Why would one want a womanising co drug dealer whose life was endangered every day to settle with his sister? So just because someone saves my life he gets to endanger my sisters and potentially future children? Defeats the purpose.

it is fine not to 'want' it, but to go to the extent that you would kill them for it, is across the line.

These drug kings who truly love the women they go after, in some way would want more for those women and recognize the threat they pose to them by bringing them into their lives. They do it anyway.

 

[Big Dawg]

I think the thieves from Home Alone are the best bad guys ever in a movie.

 

[BisexualMMA]

Pretty much this.

Film audiences have glorified this film and character. But I'd argue Stone's script is pretty dark and sour - obviously. And what makes this film work is that De Palma juxtaposes the script with 1980's pomp and pageantry.

And Pacino is just so god-damned captivating that you can't help but root for his character. But inherently, Tony Montana is a one dimensional thug. A street soldier whose wiser and faster and crueler than most, but not all. Stone's story provides the substance and Pacino/De Palma bring the style.

Tony Montana isn't wise or a great strategist in the long term, he is just well suited to blitz his way to the top and then the chips will fall where they may once he gets there.

He could almost be an allegory for Germany's early victories in WW2 and how it panned out afterward. Tony bursts onto the scene, takes out Rebenga and Omar...like Poland and Czechoslovakia. Frank is a little bit of work like France and then Sosa (Russia) notices his successes and partners up with him. Until Tony gets too full of himself and does his little Stalingrad that gets himself and everybody around him killed. He even turns on his generals like Hitler did...Manny could be kind of like the Desert Fox.

Anyway, Tony was lightning in a bottle and took over...briefly.

 

[The Big Yin]

I don't think De Palma ever intended Montana to be a Don Corleone level crime boss. He was supposed to represent 80s Miami where any low IQ street thug, who would use extreme violence, could make and lose an empire buying and selling cocaine.

There's quite a few deep dives on the clashes between De Palma and Oliver Stone on the vision of Montana and what he represents. Basically the toxic and rotting American dream. De Palma always said he was intended to be another degenerate who loses everything through the poison he pushed. That included Michelle Pfeifers character, who was supposed to represent American aristocracy, becoming infertile through cocaine use.

I Ioved how in MTV cribs every rapper worshipped their Scarface DVD and how they idolised Montana

 

[The Big Yin]

He's no Gennaro Savastano that's for sure.

And Gennaro is no Ciro

 

[RedFoxOne]

Tony Montana isn't wise or a great strategist in the long term, he is just well suited to blitz his way to the top and then the chips will fall where they may once he gets there.

He could almost be an allegory for Germany's early victories in WW2 and how it panned out afterward. Tony bursts onto the scene, takes out Rebenga and Omar...like Poland and Czechoslovakia. Frank is a little bit of work like France and then Sosa (Russia) notices his successes and partners up with him. Until Tony gets too full of himself and does his little Stalingrad that gets himself and everybody around him killed. He even turns on his generals like Hitler did...Manny could be kind of like the Desert Fox.

Anyway, Tony was lightning in a bottle and took over...briefly.

An interesting analogy.

But in the end, I think Tony Montana is the character Oliver Stone wanted him to be. He is the embodiment and amalgamation of the Cuban/American crisis. Bottled together were matters of politics , crime, poverty and drugs. Tony's mama sums up his character rather prophetically when she begs Gina to stay away from him. "He's a bum! He was a bum then and he's a bum now!"

 

[moreorless87]

An interesting analogy.

But in the end, I think Tony Montana is the character Oliver Stone wanted him to be. He is the embodiment and amalgamation of the Cuban/American crisis. Bottled together were matters of politics , crime, poverty and drugs. Tony's mama sums up his character rather prophetically when she begs Gina to stay away from him. "He's a bum! He was a bum then and he's a bum now!"

Really I think more than anything he's Stone's critical view of 80's winner takes all capitalism.