Opening up Defensive Opponents

[HeavyBadger]

Hi, looking for advice on opening up people for attack when they get a good defensive posture and stay tight with a focus on attacking from closed guard and attacking from mount.

In closed guard I typically go for the Roger gracie style of arm drag (thanks trumpetdan) and work bumps, collar chokes arm bars and pendulum sweeps off of defense to it. I'm beginning to have trulouble getting any offense going when people defend and keep elbows in tight with good posture. This is particularly problematic against anyone who is strong enough to shut down any attempts to pry their elbows from their body.

Second problem is the same situation but from mount position, when a guy keeps his hands close to his collar but elbows tight against his body and against the ground to stop you sliding up to high mount. Once I get something going. I feel like I can move between collar chokes, arm triangles, arm bars and back takes, but with some guys I can spend a full five minute round trying to get a hand in the collar or pry an elbow free when they stay tight. I've tried ezequiels and Americana attempts to setup other options from their reactions, but some guys its impossible to get any movement out of them to play with. Any time I get aggressive to try to make something happen is usually when the better guys take the space that gives them and start working escapes.

Any and all help appreciated.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Closed guard: if a guy just stays really tight but postures up, consider disengaging and standing up. It's very doable if they're not putting pressure on you, and if they don't open up as you start to disengage then you can often his an easy throw with them still on their knees.

Mount: harder. Typically I'll try to get high under their elbows, open up a collar, and feed a hand down to a choking position. You have to make sure that they don't get an arm under yours or you have nothing. This deep lapel grip sets up everything else...if you go for a cross choke by bringing the other hand across and they defend with their far hand, you can pull up on that side and slide your knee up past their head to start working armbars.

Also, if a guy is really tight, you can grab both his elbow and pull up to switch to S mount. From there it's virtually impossible for them to prevent you from attacking their arms, since at least one will always be on top. This is how I most commonly sub really defensive guys. The only requirement is that you have to be good at switching sides quickly for the armbar. Kesting has a good vid of a drill for that. I'd also Youtube Kurt Osiander Mount Attacks, he has a good vid describing the hand in the collar approach. Oh, Sean Apperson is another with a good vid on basic mount attacks. Hope that helps.

 

[HeavyBadger]

Closed guard: if a guy just stays really tight but postures up, consider disengaging and standing up. It's very doable if they're not putting pressure on you, and if they don't open up as you start to disengage then you can often his an easy throw with them still on their knees.

Mount: harder. Typically I'll try to get high under their elbows, open up a collar, and feed a hand down to a choking position. You have to make sure that they don't get an arm under yours or you have nothing. This deep lapel grip sets up everything else...if you go for a cross choke by bringing the other hand across and they defend with their far hand, you can pull up on that side and slide your knee up past their head to start working armbars.

Also, if a guy is really tight, you can grab both his elbow and pull up to switch to S mount. From there it's virtually impossible for them to prevent you from attacking their arms, since at least one will always be on top. This is how I most commonly sub really defensive guys. The only requirement is that you have to be good at switching sides quickly for the armbar. Kesting has a good vid of a drill for that. I'd also Youtube Kurt Osiander Mount Attacks, he has a good vid describing the hand in the collar approach. Oh, Sean Apperson is another with a good vid on basic mount attacks. Hope that helps.

When you say pull up on the elbows to switch to s mount, do you mean literally cup under their elbows and turn them that way? I find s mount with elbows tight difficult to manage the arm bar or back take from because it's hard to get the under part of the over under seat belt grip. Will check out those videos, ones I've never seen before and I never thought of disengaging to force them to open up, thanks.

Anyone else? How does everyone else do it?

 

[RawDawgBob]

I do it the same way you decribed.

 

[Discipulus]

TrumpetDan has a nice video where he uses the Ezekiel from low mount to get them to defend, lifting their elbows to do so, at which point he slides right into a high mount. He also shows how to secure a cross collar choke from that position.

Edit: And of course if they don't defend you just take the Ezekiel.

Here's the video, by the way:

 

[HeavyBadger]

TrumpetDan has a nice video where he uses the Ezekiel from low mount to get them to defend, lifting their elbows to do so, at which point he slides right into a high mount. He also shows how to secure a cross collar choke from that position.

Edit: And of course if they don't defend you just take the Ezekiel.

Here's the video, by the way:

I've seen this, it's very helpful, but just can't get people to move and get enough space to apply it. On a side note, I've probably learned more stuff that I use on a daily basis from grappling basics and Dan's YouTube channel than I have from my instructor lol.

 

[Discipulus]

I've seen this, it's very helpful, but just can't get people to move and get enough space to apply it. On a side note, I've probably learned more stuff that I use on a daily basis from grappling basics and Dan's YouTube channel than I have from my instructor lol.

You can't get them to move or give space when in mount? How do you mean?

 

[xMikeyX]

For closed guard go for hip bimbo when they are postured up

Lol hip bump (damn autocorrect)

 

[Discipulus]

Hip bimbo. :icon_chee

 

[sourdiesel209]

I have the same problem when I get mount... if the dude stays defensive theres nothing I can do, end up going for sloppy arm bars and shit like that.. Im just a couple weeks in tho

the other day some dude in sparring just sat on closed guard with all his weight on me.. Didnt try to pass or anything for like 5 minutes.. Couldnt make any space with my hips or anything, he was 30 pounds heavier than me... Its like he felt asleep or sumthing

 

[Discipulus]

I have the same problem when I get mount... if the dude stays defensive theres nothing I can do, end up going for sloppy arm bars and shit like that.. Im just a couple weeks in tho

the other day some dude in sparring just sat on closed guard with all his weight on me.. Didnt try to pass or anything for like 5 minutes.. Couldnt make any space with my hips or anything, he was 30 pounds heavier than me... Its like he felt asleep or sumthing

Scissor sweeeep!

 

[sourdiesel209]

Scissor sweeeep!

Ill try to pull that off in no gi next class... seems a lil harder than with the gi tho... I know now how all those ppl that got wrestlefucked in mma feel...

 

[Uchi Mata]

When you say pull up on the elbows to switch to s mount, do you mean literally cup under their elbows and turn them that way? I find s mount with elbows tight difficult to manage the arm bar or back take from because it's hard to get the under part of the over under seat belt grip. Will check out those videos, ones I've never seen before and I never thought of disengaging to force them to open up, thanks.

Anyone else? How does everyone else do it?

If their elbows are tight to their sides then their giving you the choke. If their hand are tight to their neck then they're giving you the S-mount. If they switch back and forth, they're defending dynamically which is correct and requires timing and experience to deal with.

I'm not really concerned with cupping the elbows per se, though that's one way to do it. What you don't want to have happen is for them to get an arm under one of your legs as you switch to S-mount. Pulling up on their elbows is one way to prevent that from happening. I'm not sure what you're referring to with the over-under reference...I'm not talking about taking the back, though that is fine if they give it to you. I'm talking about the kind of mount Sean Apperson shows at the end of this vid:



hope that helps.

 

[luckyshot]

People have named my favorites already: from guard if he's postured up, hip bump and everything that comes off of it (triangle, kimura, guillotine). The hardest part is clearing his arms out of the way if he is strong and putting pressure on your hips.

If he's postured down and tight, that is tough. Scissor sweep if you can't get it, which you probably won't, and use it to get a foot on his hip, kick him away and get back to your base.

From mount, I use Ezekiel all the time. Just make sure you are based low and tight, ready to sprawl arms out for the upa. Also, if you sink really low on the mount, you can reach an arm behind his head and use your shoulder to turn his face to one side. You can put a lot of pressure on from there.

 

[Discipulus]

Ill try to pull that off in no gi next class... seems a lil harder than with the gi tho... I know now how all those ppl that got wrestlefucked in mma feel...

Oh, no gi? I'm not sure how well it works there. I think it should. If the guy is just keeping his weight over you, then you should be able to sweep him. I've never worked it but, for nogi especially, I think that learning butterfly guard might be useful here, as well. Lot of sweep options from there. But that might be a bit advanced at this early stage. We both started around the same time, right?

Edit: I think the scissor sweep should work just fine if you get a grip behind the elbow or on the wrist and a single collar tie with the other hand. You could probably get an underhook, as another option. Use the underhook or the collar tie to shift their base and get their weight in the right place, and control the arm with the elbow grip or wrist control to prevent them posting. Also, if the guy is really just hugging tight and you've got no space to control his base or slide our leg in, might I suggest crossfacing the shit out of him and then switching to the collar tie?

 

[sourdiesel209]

Oh, no gi? I'm not sure how well it works there. I think it should. If the guy is just keeping his weight over you, then you should be able to sweep him. I've never worked it but, for nogi especially, I think that learning butterfly guard might be useful here, as well. Lot of sweep options from there. But that might be a bit advanced at this early stage. We both started around the same time, right?

Edit: I think the scissor sweep should work just fine if you get a grip behind the elbow or on the wrist and a single collar tie with the other hand. You could probably get an underhook, as another option. Use the underhook or the collar tie to shift their base and get their weight in the right place, and control the arm with the elbow grip or wrist control to prevent them posting. Also, if the guy is really just hugging tight and you've got no space to control his base or slide our leg in, might I suggest crossfacing the shit out of him and then switching to the collar tie?

yeah Im saving for a gi, until then only going to the nogi classes lol

Im definetly planning on learning the butterly guard eventually, ive seen anderson silva use it to sweep ppl effectively in mma, but yeah it might be too advanced right now, im only a couple weeks in..

anyways, Im just trying to learn the fundamentals really well before trying any of the weird stuff (berimbolo, DLR,X-guard, etc. etc.)..

Ill try it out with the collar tie and elbow/wrist grip next class, it should work.. haha its gonna be the 2nd sweep in my arsenal now!!

and about the guy, he was hugging really tight for dear life lol at first I was like WTF... then I tried to break his bodylock but he wouldnt let go... at this point, im about to say something.. then tried to make space/hip escape but it was too tight.. maybe he was too tired from his last sparring or sumthing... pretty frustrating, so yeah next time he pulls that shit im crossfacing his ass... its the only way to make some space

 

[Discipulus]

Sounds obnoxious. Why roll if you're not going to do anything? Good luck!