Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by Darwinist, Oct 12, 2005.
Not to say that single punches can't kill, but with most of these cases that someone is killed with a single punch it's been found that it wasn't the punch that killed them but the impact of the back of their head on the hard concrete after they'd been hit
falling on hard floors (bars) or on the concrete (street) while KOed is the main reason of thoses very bad injuries
That is true, in most instances that is, but that was not the case for these two.
Guy one was punched hard in the side of the head, remained concious for awhile, even talked to some people before collapsing and the other one was sitting down in a sofa when a small argument broke out, the soccer player stood up, punched him in the side/back of the head and walked away. The guy slumped over in the sofa, never regained conciousness.
In both cases autopsies revealed that their deaths were the direct results of cerebral haemorrage caused by the punches.
P.s, in no way am I trying to put down stand-up fighting(even though I
All I have to say is most of your points are accurate save for one. The TMA guys preaching one-punch kills. Single-blow killing techniques have been around for ages, but almost none of them focus on a punch or blow to the face or skull, the idea is not to impact bone, but other areas where the probability of killing or crippling is much higher. One of the only sure-fire techniques I've heard of concerning this is a blow to the throat. More times than not if you land it on an unsuspecting person (meaning you do it out of nowhere, before the fight begins, so fast and so hard that they do not see to defend the target your aiming for), more times than not the crushing of the larynx will result in death. I have a friend who actually did this to a person in England when he was younger and spent some time in prison over it.
I've heard rumor (rumor because how does one really observe these techniques?) of older Martial Artists being able to stop a heart with a specifically targeted blow delivered with also a specific amount of force. The problem with the inconcistency of application of these techniques is not because of fault with the techniques I don't think, but because of lack of opportunities to properly demonstrate them.
Most street fights are spontaneous, and typically there's no real gameplan as there is with organized competition. So it's sufficient to say nothing in a street fight can really be controlled. Hell a grappler who is simply trying to choke a guy into unconsciousness could end up killing him by accident, or because of resistence from the guy, breaking his neck. A wrestler going to slam a guy could also slam him and cause severe spinal injury, paralysis, and even death. But when your physical well-being is on the line, preservance of your own becomes the priority, not the safety of the opponent, therefore people who routinely get into these situations don't have any real means to gauge what kind of control should and should not be used. You don't want to hold back because you could get hurt. You don't want to go balls-out because you don't want to end up in Prison, but Prison might be a better alternative than the hospital or the morgue. And usually you have less than a minute to consider all of this.
Only the most experienced, and lifelong practitioners of Martial Arts in-general have I ever seen remain calm, and approach these situations with organization. Anyone can argue their response would be extreme if the guy ended up with a broken leg or something, but the Martial Artist would then say something to the degree of "I could have killed him, he's fortunate." Just to remind people that this situation was about their physical being under threat of imminent harm.
Good post Kabuki, and your point that subs and wrestling techs can be just as deadly is correct. But in my opinion the grappling can be controlles far more. If you have a sub on you should also have control of his body and be able to apply the move with care. Then again, I
sounds to me like there was some other factor involved. there are literally hundreds of street-fights a night in south africa (which is a pretty big place , before you space monkeys go nuts) and hardly ever is anybody killed becuz of a punch . maybe there is something in the air in iceland or something , but it sounds to me like freak occurances that people die from a single punch from an untrained person.
Yes, I know that this happening is at the extreme end of the probability curve and two in one year in a country as small as Iceland is borderline impossible - but sometimes things happen this way. It
You have also have to take in factor of the conditions of these fights. For instane size difference. This may not apply to the soccer player but what about the size of teh guys. I know some big motherfuckers and if they were to blind somebody with a haymaker punch the probability of them killing them is much higher then say a guy that weighs 150 lbs. For instance Mike Tyson vs Any Joe Schmo. I'm not saying these guys were monster hitters like Iron Mike...but you have to take that into consideration.
Also you have to take in account you don't know what happened during these fights. That soccer player for all we know could have ran balls out from one side of the room to the other and blind sided that guy on teh couch wiht a giant haymaker. The chances of that killing somebody is pretty high. Another example...I don't know if you guys watch baskebtall but i remeber hearing about a fight broekn out in the NBA and a guy (i forgot his name but hes a coach today) ran from one side fo teh court to the other to break it up, mean while his teammate thinking he was going to get hit from behidn, who was a 6'6 black dude, turned with a giant haymaker and the guy ended up eating his fist while running full speed into it. Single punch..that broke pretty much every bone in his face.
You have to take these all into considerations. I'm not sayign that the average joe vs the average joe can't kill his friend wiht a single punch, you just have to take into consideration of the shit that went down with these fights...for all we know they could be false reports and in reality they guy ended up smashin his face in 10 to 20 times...
Thats my .02 cents
And reading this does scare me a little bit I must say lol. I have a fight coming up and this is one of those very things that are running through my mind...but we all have to keep in mind that we are more liekly to be hit by a bus coming out of a shopping mart then being killed by a single punch.....i hope at least.
LOL sorry, didn
well the real question is...are hands made to punch people heads? does mother nature gave us hands to punch lol... anyway, I enjoy punching but always keep in mind that we are an useless specie on a fighting point of view... we have so many flaws (jaw, body, brain, etc)... the human body is weak... fortunately, our hands gave us the opportunity to build "tools" and "goods" so we can fight protected... while animals laugh at us
philosopher mode off
I agree knees and elbows>fists as natural weapons all the way. And we are not fighting animals by nature. We have no claws, fangs horns etc....that
It isn't the punch. It's the impact of the BACK of the head hitting the concrete, curb, table, bar, etc.
Damn...maybe Icelanders are just lethally-gifted punchers. Could be the melee-loving Viking in them boiling to the surface when riled...guess we should all be glad that we don't see lots of pugilists coming out of Reykjavik. :wink:
I've heard the same thing, and yeah, it's a little hard to prove since people willing to volunteer to test their validity can be a little hard to come by ("I'd like to now hit someone in such a way as to make them go into arrest and die...volunteers from the audience, anyone?"). I recall seeing something on a Discovery Channel show about Asian martial arts when an old kung fu master was rumored to have the ability to kill with a single punch. Some young tough looking to gain a rep tried picking a fight with him on a daily basis for some time, confronting the man when he's visit a particular shop for tea. One day the old man calmly stood up, delivered a singlew punch with blinding speed, and lo and behold turns out the rumors were true. The guy dropped dead where he stood.
Though beyond that: like you, KK, I was only ever taught that a killshot could be delivered to the throat, something that my school never focused on; I learned only because the instructor was my best friends, and his instructor was a crazy mo-fo from Korea who wasn't above teaching lethal technique to advanced students.
In general: anytime you strike someone, you can kill them. Bear this in mind next time your itching for a fight with some asshole. You hit him and he dies because you hit him-- either from the force of the blow or because you KO him and he whacks his skull on something hard on the way down-- and you're likely looking at jail time. Being a trained martial artist in these cases will certainly not help you in court. There have been rare cases of students dying in training or in tournaments because they absorbed a stiff shot to the sternum at just the right time to induce cardiac arrest and kill them...I forget the whole physiological process beyond it, but I think it involves disrupting the nerve signals propagating across cradiac muscle. A freak accident, but still deadly.
one reason why you do not see kills from alot of fights is that people are expecting to be hit. They are facing you. The front part of your skull is quite hard. The side and back is a different story.
think of it in physics
when you take a punch to the forehead, your head recoils and your back noodles up a little bit and your knees bend slightly. Your body is absorbing the impact.
From the side, your neck will recoil, your back goes limp a little your knees bend a bit but the energy can't be absorbed by your whole body this time.
Not to mention the skulls thickness is less on the sides and back, causing the persons knuckles to possibly move the bone vs the hand breaking.
that is why these guys were killed. The punch would impact to the brain was alot more and caused a blood vessel to tear.
LOL on the pugilistic qualities of Icelanders considering that boxing(even amateur) was banned in Iceland from 1950-1998 or so. Maybe because the authorities feared we
Like when Baer whacked Campbell, he died from a serious concussion I believe. Hardcore.
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