Olympic weightlifting for combat fighters

[Sano]

Would you have a transitional block where the athlete does a bunch of explosive med ball throws or something equivalent (Russian twists, landmine presses, etc), do it concurrently. or skip that stuff altogether since it's mostly similar to oly lifting? For someone who isn't a competitive lifter do you think the barbell part of the equation matters a lot, or would something like Westside-Style dynamic effort be a substitive for athletic purposes?

Yeah I would have a transitional block! I touched a little on it the post before. Some exercises might be done concurrently through all or several blocks, including; dynamic and proprioceptive warmup, mobility and activation drills, core exercises and cooldowns.

It depends on the athlete really, but if I had to lay out the blocks, without going too much into detail with the exercises, it would look something like this:

Boxer/striker/MMA fighter:
1. GPP block: Muscular endurance/strength + stability + eccentric absortion + aerobic capacity (foundation for recovery and injury prevention)
2. Max strength and conditoning block: Max force + aerobic/anaerobic capacity and threshold (undulating HIT and Steady State, undulating strength sessions with heavy to light work)
3. Power block: Relevant work from strength-speed to speed-strength, relevant plyometrics (exercises depends on the FVC profile of the athlete, but olympic lifting would be here)
4. Power/velocity block (sport specific) Relevant work from max power to max velocity, repeated sprintability/power endurance, more sport specific, use of post-activation potentiation (medballs, bands, supramaximal work, PAP, reaction drills, agility, cues)
5. End phase/tapering: Maintainance, pure sport specific work, recovery, tapering.

The specificity increases through the periodization, but there's exercises I would give during GPP and through all blocks that specificly benefits a combat athlete more than someone else. Tailoring it from the beginning is a good idea, as long as you cover all the basics. I'd use barbells when necessary yes, especially building the foundation and max strength, but there's many tools.

 

[spiderguarda]

I get the point you're trying to make but the force velocity curve (FVC) is not always entirely applicable to all aspects of a sport. Sometimes you want to train different attributes at different places on the FVC, and another important thing to remember is that attributes within the sport itself can be placed at several places on the FVC. If we are talking pure handspeed and reaction time, then that would be near the max velocity end of the spectrum. If we are talking punching power, then that would be closer to strength-speed or max power on the curve. Most of the power is generated in the legs and lower body, and while the velocity matters as well (which is why you should train that too), maximum power and force production matters more for punching power.

Think about how vertical jumping is a bodyweight movement, however oly lifting and trapbar jumps can improve your vertical. Punching and kicking is different yes, because you're not overcoming the same inertia with your entire bodyweight, however the explosive power and ground reaction forces during a punch or kick is simular.

Medballs are excellent as well yes, and something I'd do more towards the end of the power block getting more into the sport specific power phase. Oly lifting or derivatives I'd use at the begining of the block to build the more powerful engine initially.

Yeah I've read the McGill study. I like McGill but he's a tad narrow minded sometimes and he is obsessed with core bracing for back pain (which is not always the answer). With that said, he's done some interesting work. You're referring to something called the double peak, or the double pulse. The core tightens when you initiate the strike (promixal stability, first pulse), then it relaxes a bit, then it tightens again upon impact (second pulse). There's no doubt that the ability to both isometrically and dynamically engage your core is very important for producing power, which is why it's something you should program as well.

You can read it here if you want: https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/..._a_Double_Peak_in_Muscle_Activation_to.8.aspx

Thanks for the link to Mcgill’s Paper.

My understanding is that he has clients and makes his income from his books, products, and consultations for those with spinal injuries. I don’t think he’s against spinal torque that occurs in golfing and other sports. His website has a DVD on golfing.

He is against movements he believes wears out the spine discs or worsens damaged discs that includes spinal torque, flexion, and I suppose hyperextension.

 

[Sano]

Thanks for the link to Mcgill’s Paper.

My understanding is that he has clients and makes his income from his books, products, and consultations for those with spinal injuries. I don’t think he’s against spinal torque that occurs in golfing and other sports. His website has a DVD on golfing.

He is against movements he believes wears out the spine discs or worsens damaged discs that includes spinal torque, flexion, and I suppose hyperextension.

The problem is that his initial stance on flexion was based on an in vitro model (outside of a real human) and that later in vivo studies (in humans) havent shown the same results. There's nothing wrong with unloaded flexion, or even loaded in some instances, if it's done sensibly. What helps or doesnt help an individual with back pain depends on the underlying pathology and that is varies a lot. The science on disc herniations has been revolutionized in the last decade and when dealing with unspecific back pain bracing too much can actually worsen the issue.

No doubt that McGill is a pioneer. I follow and use a lot of his work. That doesnt mean that he's perfect or that he didnt make errors a long the way. The obsession with bracing for lower back pain, in a vacuum, was one.

With that said the ability to brace and stabilise the core when needed is invaluable, especially for perfomance. A lot of what we do here would fall under that category.

 

[spiderguarda]

The problem is that his initial stance on flexion was based on an in vitro model (outside of a real human) and that later in vivo studies (in humans) havent shown the same results. There's nothing wrong with unloaded flexion, or even loaded in some instances, if it's done sensibly. What helps or doesnt help an individual with back pain depends on the underlying pathology and that is varies a lot. The science on disc herniations has been revolutionized in the last decade and when dealing with unspecific back pain bracing too much can actually worsen the issue.

No doubt that McGill is a pioneer. I follow and use a lot of his work. That doesnt mean that he's perfect or that he didnt make errors a long the way. The obsession with bracing for lower back pain, in a vacuum, was one.

With that said the ability to brace and stabilise the core when needed is invaluable, especially for perfomance. A lot of what we do here would fall under that category.

I thought from his interviews etc he still claims repetitive spinal flexion causes eventual disc damage. From what I have read, it’s still unknown why some with MRI scans show no symptoms but others have pain.

What books discuss the latest on disc herniations? From what I can read, disc herniation where the inside gel comes out, the disc doesn’t really heal like the way a skin cut heals. So what prevents the gel from not keep escaping?

 

[Sano]

I thought from his interviews etc he still claims repetitive spinal flexion causes eventual disc damage. From what I have read, it’s still unknown why some with MRI scans show no symptoms but others have pain.

What books discuss the latest on disc herniations? From what I can read, disc herniation where the inside gel comes out, the disc doesn’t really heal like the way a skin cut heals. So what prevents the gel from not keep escaping?

In regards to discs and herniations. It's true that the discus doesn't have vascularity so it doesn't have optimal conditions for healing. Movement in many cases is what feeds and nurtures the discs, and degenerative changes is unavoiadable. That is part of life, and as you said, you can have various "pathologies" on an MRI and still be symptom free. That doesn't mean that MRIs are useless, not at all, but it means there's several factors that influence the pain. In regards to disc herniations specificly, a new meta-analysis from Zhong et al. in 2017 actually showed that up to 50% of all lower back disc herniations gets reabsorbed back into the disc and de-herniate! Which you can read a short summary of here: https://www.painscience.com/biblio/at-least-half-of-herniated-discs-spontaneously-de-herniate.html

Further about 90% of lower back pain recedes within 3 months and there's no evidence to support one rehabilitation method over another. That has more to do with the fact that the nature of lower back pain is complex and it can have a lot of different underlying causes both mechanically and psychosomatically. That is why you have to examine the individual.

McGill might still say that, I don't know what his exact stance is now. There's no doubt that under heavy load neutral is where you want to be, and that in some populations flexion is ill adviced. But otherwise the anti-flexion movement, as a general rule, is not well supported. Some people prefer flexion, say patients with spinalstenosis because extension is actually what gives them symptoms.

I would read this short article by Peter O'Sullivan, one of the premier back pain therapists, about some common lower back pain misconceptions: https://blogs.bmj.com/bjsm/2014/08/...2fhqJ2HeXeqDPXIfObeqrW3mXDPZq88uZO70t83ATiZNI

And this one going into more depth on spinal flexion by Greg Lehman, one of the leading researchers on pain science: http://www.greglehman.ca/blog/2016/01/31/revisiting-the-spinal-flexion-debate-prepare-for-doubt

 

[spiderguarda]

In regards to discs and herniations. It's true that the discus doesn't have vascularity so it doesn't have optimal conditions for healing. Movement in many cases is what feeds and nurtures the discs, and degenerative changes is unavoiadable. That is part of life, and as you said, you can have various "pathologies" on an MRI and still be symptom free. That doesn't mean that MRIs are useless, not at all, but it means there's several factors that influence the pain. In regards to disc herniations specificly, a new meta-analysis from Zhong et al. in 2017 actually showed that up to 50% of all lower back disc herniations gets reabsorbed back into the disc and de-herniate! Which you can read a short summary of here: https://www.painscience.com/biblio/at-least-half-of-herniated-discs-spontaneously-de-herniate.html

Further about 90% of lower back pain recedes within 3 months and there's no evidence to support one rehabilitation method over another. That has more to do with the fact that the nature of lower back pain is complex and it can have a lot of different underlying causes both mechanically and psychosomatically. That is why you have to examine the individual.

McGill might still say that, I don't know what his exact stance is now. There's no doubt that under heavy load neutral is where you want to be, and that in some populations flexion is ill adviced. But otherwise the anti-flexion movement, as a general rule, is not well supported. Some people prefer flexion, say patients with spinalstenosis because extension is actually what gives them symptoms.

I would read this short article by Peter O'Sullivan, one of the premier back pain therapists, about some common lower back pain misconceptions: https://blogs.bmj.com/bjsm/2014/08/...2fhqJ2HeXeqDPXIfObeqrW3mXDPZq88uZO70t83ATiZNI

And this one going into more depth on spinal flexion by Greg Lehman, one of the leading researchers on pain science: http://www.greglehman.ca/blog/2016/01/31/revisiting-the-spinal-flexion-debate-prepare-for-doubt

I have read these pages but not the Peter O’Sullivan page.

Do you know how the disc heal if it’s sequestered? If the disc annulus is ripped or has a hole and the inner gel comes out, what prevents it from continuing to come out since the disc is typically under compression?

Thanks for the links.

 

[Noodles03]

@Sano , speaking of low back pain. I briefly get sharp low back pain if I bend at an awkward angle after I do a set of weighted (holding a 10 lb plate) crunches on the stability ball. Am I doing the exercise wrong or should lay off the weighted crunches on the stability ball? Thank you.

 

[j123]

The only olympic lift you should be doing is barbell squat rack curls

 

[Sano]

I have read these pages but not the Peter O’Sullivan page.

Do you know how the disc heal if it’s sequestered? If the disc annulus is ripped or has a hole and the inner gel comes out, what prevents it from continuing to come out since the disc is typically under compression?

Thanks for the links.

A disc herniation can only happen after a tear in the annulus fibrosus (outer ring). What you call a sequestration is what a herniation is. The pulposus (gel) changes form and become less viscous (soft/fluid like) after a tear so it doesn't get pressed out continously, and the de-herniations happens after a full tear in the annulus. A lot of the the time a prolaps or herniation will resolve without surgical treatment, and many prospective studies show that outcomes are very simular in the majority of cases between surgical and non-surgical options. What you really want to look out for it loss of reflexes, loss of sensibility, a few red flags that can be dangerous and loss of muscle activity and atrophy. Non-surgical options are the first line of treatment, but if it keeps getting worse and worse only then should you consider surgery.

Btw, if you want to read the whole meta-analysis from Zhong et al: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c415/7f9cddbd4df8d6e6347441289c76b7693bd4.pdf

Also, important to note is that compression is not the only factor. As I mentioned the gel wont just keep getting pressed out, most of the time it's shear forces and specific directional pressures that causes problems. Also, the discs can tear certain places but not be effected at others. The donut analogy has done a terrible disservice to a lot of people, because it's not really applicable.

 

[Sano]

@Sano , speaking of low back pain. I briefly get sharp low back pain if I bend at an awkward angle after I do a set of weighted (holding a 10 lb plate) crunches on the stability ball. Am I doing the exercise wrong or should lay off the weighted crunches on the stability ball? Thank you.

Hard to say. Does it happen regularly (the pain)? Is it painful for some time after or at other times during the day?

If you're worried and experiencing pain I would definitely change something up. What that is, barring another exercises variation, is impossible to say without being there to watch you work.

 

[Noodles03]

Hard to say. Does it happen regularly (the pain)? Is it painful for some time after or at other times during the day?

If you're worried and experiencing pain I would definitely change something up. What that is, barring another exercises variation, is impossible to say without being there to watch you work.

The pain only last for a split second and it only happens if I quickly rotate or bend my low back. Of course, since only occurs after a set of weighted crunches. However, I'm fine as long I don't rapidly bend my low back after my set of weighted crunches.

 

[Sano]

The pain only last for a split second and it only happens if I quickly rotate or bend my low back. Of course, since only occurs after a set of weighted crunches. However, I'm fine as long I don't rapidly bend my low back after my set of weighted crunches.

Sounds fine, but I'd still try and switch it up.

 

[Noodles03]

Sounds fine, but I'd still try and switch it up.

Cool, thank you.

 

[Noodles03]

The only olympic lift you should be doing is barbell squat rack curls

Don’t forget about squatting by the dumbbells for maximum muscle confusion.

 

[Ivanko]

The pain only last for a split second and it only happens if I quickly rotate or bend my low back. Of course, since only occurs after a set of weighted crunches. However, I'm fine as long I don't rapidly bend my low back after my set of weighted crunches.

Are you doing Oly weightlifting moves, kettlebells or hitting heavy bag? If yes, I advise you to stop for some time and observe. Stop doing all unstable exercises. Switch to the old good crunches.
Sharp pain is the sign of a problem, which can disappear if you decrease intensity of your training.
I spoke to a doctor, a former boxer, when I was trying to fix my spinal disc herniation. He told me that it was a research done back in 70-ies, which revealed the direct correlation between punching heavy bags and spinal disc herniation.
I recall that all my coaches used to forbid hitting heavy bags more than 3 rounds in a row. Maybe because of that reason.
I don't want to sound like your father, but the spinal health problems is an unpleasant issue that will chase anyone who neglect the signals of his own body.

 

[Noodles03]

@Ivanko , yes, I’m doing kettlebells exercises and hitting the heavy bag.
I definitely stop doing weighted crunches on the stability and now I do them on the floor and there’s no pain.

That’s interesting with the correlations between hitting the heavy bag and spinal disc herination. I’ll lay off the heavy bag for a while and I’ll drop the the number of rounds to 3.

I don't want to sound like your father, but the spinal health problems is an unpleasant issue that will chase anyone who neglect the signals of his own body.

lol I just had to post that. But I’m glad that you mentioned the concerns on spinal health.

 

[Dan O]

I just got home so I can't really be bothered to go into all the details, but there's some very distinct reasons why olympic lifts, or at least derivatives of those lifts, can be very beneficial to punching power.

Starting with the punch, there's several factors that play into it being powerful. Also, it depends on the type of punch of course. Let's just stick with the straight. Biomechanically, one of the primary factors is powerful triple extension of the lower body in the sequence, ankle, knee and hip. There's also a push off with the back foot and a breaking component with the front foot. Physiologically, and in regards to the physics, acceleration/deceleration, rate of force development, stretch shortening cycle, velocity, high force and especially ground reaction forces are important. Ground reaction forces, total lower limb power and impulse has been linked to punching power in several studies (we're talking with trained people who know technique). Btw, there's rotational velocity and other factors that impacts power, but leave that aside for now.

What does olympic weightlifting do? Powerful triple extension, very powerful hip extension, very high ground reaction forces and high impulse. So, not only are they biomechanically simular, at least in the lower body (with the split jerk being even closer) they also produce incredible amounts of relevant force in a very short time. In fact, measured in power (force x velocity) you'd be hard pressed to find any exercise that tops them.

With that said, there's a certain time investment that is a negative and other exercises can mimic some of the same things. What I like to do is easier variations, like doing hang power cleans or power cleans instead of cleans and so on. You can get roughly the same benefits, and in some cases they are even more angle and sport specific. Also, there's substitute exercises that do some of what the olympic lifts do like squat jumps, reverse medball throws and various others.

Two things that are extremely underrated in regards to the carryover of oly lifting is the pull (great for upper body force and velocity), the jerk (same thing) AND most importantly, the catch. You can catch pretty high in the power versions of the lifts, which makes the position more simular to punching, and that catch with the HARD stomp in the ground getting under the bar is key. That stomp feeds into the sinking into the ground on a punch, and helps with the breaking phase as well. Talk about creating ground reaction forces!

So yes, if modified and used in a sensible way, they are amazing. Also, to your OP, punching isn't just horizontal forces. Not even sprinting is just horizontal forces, with top speed sprinting being more about vertical force. Vertical, hortizontal and rotationary all matter, and there's a strong correlation between vertical force ballistics and punching power.

Best current era S+C poster right here

 

[Sano]

Best current era S+C poster right here

Don't know about that, but thank you very much for the compliment! Have a good weekend.

 

[Cole train]

For the love of god just lift weights 2 times a week with skill training and you will be fine.

90 procent should be technique anyway (mma ammy champ at my gym doesnt even lift weights)

 

[Michael Conley]

For the love of god just lift weights 2 times a week with skill training and you will be fine.

It's almost as if simplicity trumps sperging out over walls of kinesiology texts and making things exponentially more complicated than they need to be.